Why You Spend When You’re Stressed (And How to Stop) | David Dowd

If you’ve ever spent money just to feel better in the moment…
 this episode is for you.

There’s a moment… right before you spend.
 Not because you need something, but because you need relief.

And if you’ve ever added something to your cart just to feel better…
 you’re not alone.

Money stress doesn’t just live in your budget, it lives in your body. And when that stress builds quietly over time, it shows up as coping behaviors: overspending, overeating, overworking, over-pleasing… the patterns that feel small until they don’t.

In this episode of Delay the Binge, David Dowd and I unpack what’s really happening in that moment, and how a simple pause can interrupt the cycle before it takes over.

David’s journey, from performing in a metal band to customer service, mortgage lending, and now the financial space, brings a powerful perspective on empathy, emotional labor, and behavior change.

🎯 In this conversation:

• Why customer service is a form of “performance” (and how it contributes to Quiet Depletion)
 • How emotional spending actually works, and how to interrupt it without shame
 • The “put it in the cart and sleep on it” pause that puts you back in control
 • Why small wins (snowball method) rebuild confidence and momentum
 • A grounded first step when you feel behind:
 “It’s going to be okay—because you’re going to make it okay.”

If your finances—or your habits—have been quietly draining you, this conversation will help you recognize the pattern… and give you a next step you can use today.

This is Delay the Binge™ — formerly The Plus One Theory Podcast.

Delay the Binge™ explores the patterns behind urges, habits, emotional eating, stress, burnout, and Quiet Depletion™, and what happens in the pause between impulse and action, where real behavior change begins.

Through conversations with leading experts in neuroscience, psychology, resilience, and human behavior, you’ll gain practical insight into how the brain shapes reactions, and how small, intentional shifts can interrupt patterns and create lasting change.

Because it’s not about willpower…it’s about what you do in the moment the urge hits.

Full video episodes available on YouTube
 👉 https://www.youtube.com/@pamdwyerspeaker

Learn more: https://delaythebinge.com

Pam Dwyer | Speaker & Bestselling Author
Storytelling that transforms. Healing that lasts.

Books + Speaking:  https://www.tpkkconcepts.com/

⚠️ IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER

This podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical, psychological, or professional advice.

The content shared reflects personal experiences and general insights and should not replace guidance from a licensed healthcare provider, therapist, or qualified profe...

Transcript

Past As Preparation

SPEAKER_04 0:00

There's a belief I've carried for years, one that quietly shapes nearly every conversation I have on the show. Your past does not define you, it prepares you. And every now and then, a story walks into your life that reflects that belief in the most unexpected way. David Dowd is one of those stories. David has spent years working in customer service. He's worked as a mortgage loan officer, and now he works in the financial space. But like so many of us, professional titles rarely tell the full story. David, welcome to the show. And before we dive into your professional journey, which I'm very anxious for, I absolutely have to ask about something that you just casually mentioned. You were the singer in a metal band. This is not something I hear every day. So how on earth did that chapter of your life ever happen?

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Yeah, no, it was one of probably the more unique parts of my life, but I met my band in college, and we all kind of just, hey, you know, I I like metal music, and I'm like, well, you know, I don't really know a whole lot about, you know, metal, especially like this wasn't like 80s, like you're probably used to thinking like Judas Priest or something. No, this was like heavier than that. This is like metal core, as it is called. So I didn't even know much about that. But I was like, hey, I'll play second guitar. Let's let's give it a shot. It's out in Castroville, is where it was at. So if my guys, my bandmates are listening in, hey, shout out. But uh basically went out to Castroville and started playing second guitar, and the singer wasn't really meshing with the band. And I'm like, you know what? I I'm pretty sure I could do a better job singing than playing guitar. Just never really got any official training on any of this, but I played the clarinet in uh throughout middle school and high school. So you have to play a lot of the melodies. You're kind of used to that. And the way I build music is like, I got to hear the song, and then I can just put lyrics on top of it. That's kind of my work way of doing things. So it was a wonderful experience for three years. We uh we played a lot at what used to be the White Rabbit, now it's the paper tiger. We went out to Austin only once. That's that really sucked because that's like a music town. But and we went out to Corpus Christi a few times. So well over a hundred shows. Great time, great guys to work with, but just you know, you get older, you you have kids, you there's a lot of other responsibilities. It gets harder to stay in that scene, and that's just kind of how it played out for us.

SPEAKER_04 2:43

So well, what was the name of the band? Can you say?

SPEAKER_00 2:46

Yes, I absolutely can. Uh, it was Kalevra, uh, which is supposed to be Hebrew. It's like Kalefra, I think is how you're supposed to say it, but it's Hebrew for bad dog, but we misspelled it. So, like, that's why nobody took the band name. We were like making the website and everything. So, fun fact, uh yeah, we space K-A-L-E, but it's supposed to be another A there, and then Z R A. So, either way, um, it was a great time. I enjoyed that chapter a lot and uh lots of great memories.

SPEAKER_04 3:16

Well, you know, everything we do is preparing us for what we're doing now. So I I would be once we finish our visit today, I I'm gonna be curious as to how it led you to where you're at now.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:28

Because music, I mean, I love music and I and I can play some instruments and I sing, but music is such a it's a powerful form of expression, you know, and I I interviewed a lady a couple of weeks ago that is believes firmly that everyone can learn creativity. I mean, it's not a lot of people think you're just born with with creativity.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Right.

SPEAKER_04 3:55

But her um belief and she educates a lot of corporations on how you can find your creative flow and and how you can learn it as a skill. So music, music, I think there are some people that are very good at it, and then there are some people that really want to be, and they're learning.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Yes, I I learned while being a vocalist that technically anybody could become a better vocalist with training and practice. Uh and it's it's possible for everyone, but it's just a matter of like, can you dedicate that time?

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Yeah.

Performing Meets Customer Service

SPEAKER_00 4:32

And is it something you're passionate about? Because obviously it requires a lot of hard work to get to a point where people are like, you know what, I'm okay with listening to them sing, as opposed to like, you know, karaoke night.

SPEAKER_04 4:42

Um, I'm gonna use this as a way to pull in the past um performing. So performing, to me, performing and customer service seem like completely different worlds. But if you've ever worked in customer service, I think you would understand what I mean when I'm saying when I say that you're performing. Because no matter how you feel, you still have to be pleasant and kind and good, you know, as to have good customer service. So do you see any unexpected connections between performing and working with people?

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Yes. Yes, because to your point, you may not be feeling top of your game. You may not be feeling like the best person in the world, you know, something happened and you're deep in thought about something, or you need to work out something later. But in that moment, if you're truly gonna serve somebody, you've got to put that aside. You know, hey, put this aside for a moment and put on my best performance in a sense, but also like genuinely going, hey, if if I'm actually gonna help this person, I need to be kind, I need to be courteous, I need to have patience. I think that's a big one. Patience.

SPEAKER_04 5:57

Oh my gosh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

It's just like, oh, you know, I'm oh god, I'm feeling so maybe they're not talking to you nicely. That's another thing, too, because you've also got to kind of see where the challenges are in the communication, because different communicators, right? Maybe you're someone who wants to talk about your day, talk about your life. This person's just like, let's get to the point, right to it. I don't want to deal with any of this stuff, I just want to get on with my life. And so you gotta deal with those, I think there's like four or five different types of people based on who you're reading. But yeah, you got to deal with all those different types of people. So it's a performance, it's also adaptive. I feel that's another one too. Um, because it's like you got to adapt to the person, and then you've got to try your best because you're really gonna serve somebody, you gotta talk their language, you gotta kind of copy them some degree. And like, hey, if they're to the point, okay, you're gonna kind of shift to being to the point. If they're, oh, you know, I just want to know about your day, man. How you doing? You're gonna be like, oh, well, you know, I'll tell you what, this is what's going on with me right now. Oh, boy, howdy, I'll tell you what, but you know, get that, get that going on. So there's there's kind of different ways of going about it. But I would say, yeah, it's absolutely a performance, but I think as long as it's coming from the lens of you're trying to help that person, it won't seem inauthentic.

SPEAKER_04 7:07

Right. And, you know, there's so many different types of people out there. You have to learn to read the room, which I feel, believe it or not, I feel fortunate that I grew up the way I did, because when you grow up in an abusive situation, you learn to read the room real quick. And oddly enough, we find the most terrible person in the room and we make a beeline for that person so that we can manipulate or control or help others, you know, prevent prevent them from getting hurt too. So it's a protective thing. So I learned to read the room early in my life. And so I guess that's why I went into customer service too, because I learned how to read people really well. But what pulled you, what originally pulled you into customer service work? I mean, what made you want to get into it?

SPEAKER_00 7:58

Man, I'll tell you what, that just looking back at my past and like, David, what were you thinking? Yeah? What was going through your mind? And honestly, it was just like, well, I I need money. I need to be able to eat, I need to be able to pay for things. So very early on, that's all work ever really was for me. It was like, hey, I'm doing this to make money to then go and buy things. There wasn't really a savings or investing aspect to it. It wasn't so much that I'm trying to build something, trying to go to a higher place, like management or a bigger position later on. It was just, hey, I'm gonna work and I'm gonna get money, and then I'm gonna use that to go and buy the things I need. And it's like very transactional. I guess that's the way you could put it. Super transactional. But as time moves along, because again, and I get I get this from uh what was it? It's it's Cal Newport's book, The uh So Good They Can't Ignore You, I believe is the name.

SPEAKER_04 8:58

Oh, I've not read that. I'll have to look it up.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

It's a great read. Well, basically, Cal Newport's a computer, he's a computer programmer, and you can definitely tell he's a computer programmer, but the way he writes is very like if then else kind of, you know. It's very, very straightforward. And in the book, he talks about how you don't look for your passion. You're not looking for that when you're trying to find what you need to do for an occupation, but rather you do an occupation and you get so good at it that eventually that becomes your passion. That's like the kind of the overall overarching theme of the book, which I really enjoyed. And I think that's kind of what happened to me, you know. So I started off doing, I was waiting tables. That's like as far as the service aspect of the thing, I was waiting tables at a retirement home.

SPEAKER_04 9:43

Hey man, there's nothing wrong with that. It's the still to this day the best money I ever made.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

But yeah, no, no, no. I mean, when I was working at Joe's Crab Shack, absolutely, because there was tips in the mix, right? But but at the retirement home, you know, you're just making an hourly wage. And I love the folks. I think the hardest part about working that job was when someone would pass away. That was really tough.

SPEAKER_04 10:01

Yeah. Super tough.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

But uh, but no, they were great people. Even if they were cranky at first or grumpy, man, you you start, they start to grow on you, they start to learn their story. What do they do in World War II? What who do they love? They come by to visit sometimes. It was just an experience, to say the least. But um, yeah, service, and then from there into the insurance. So technically, that's kind of where my finance background really started was with insurance. It was customer service, bear in mind. But you start to learn like, what is insurance? Why is it important? A lot of us think it's just a waste of money because we'll never, you know, if we never end up using it, but that's the whole point, you know, you don't use it, and that's a good thing, right?

SPEAKER_04 10:41

Right. And I always say to people, you know, if you don't understand something, even if you don't have a desire to do it, get get curious. And and and it really helps you relate to the people that are in that line of work because it can help you relate to them better if you understand what they do on a regular basis. Like I always visualize myself sitting in their chair on the other side of the table, you know, like, how do they do this job? Why do they do this job? What kind of person are they? I don't know. I I just do that with a lot. But do you think um do you think most people misunderstand customer service? Like they don't relate to it if they've never worked in it.

Empathy, Patience, And Reading People

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Yes. I think it should be it should be a law that everyone goes through customer service as an occupation at some point in their life. I just because you there's so much empathy that you build being in the seat of trying to help somebody and then looking on the counter end when you're actually the customer and you're being service, then you start to notice more things than if you hadn't. So, you know, I'll basically call it my mom out on this one. Every time we go out to eat, if the service is getting kind of shoddy, right? It's getting kind of, you know, oh, they forgot something. Oh, they're taking a while. My mom's one of those people that start to get a little upset. And I have to kind of like, it's okay, mom, because you know, I've come from that world. So I understand, hey, there's a lot more other people working here. Could be the kitchen staff is behind. Could be, hey, they're really busy right now. And so just kind of understanding that better. My mom, she did that a long time ago. And I guess it's just been so long that you know, maybe it's not ingrained.

SPEAKER_04 12:23

We have to talk her off the ledge. I mean, because that's my husband never worked in customer service either. So he's he's really hard on people, and it's embarrassing to me. And so I talk him off the ledge, I say, you know, like, okay, let's let's think about that. Good cycle and let's look at that, you know, a little closer. And I always start like with waiting, like I always start at$10 for the tip or whatever the number is. And then as they do poor service, you know, we reduce it a dollar every time they do something not good.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

Yeah. That that's actually kind of fun when you think about it. It's like, well, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:02

It it keeps him off the ledge, so to speak. Oh keeps him focused on something else. Huh, I'm taking another dollar off. I have no tea.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Yeah, that's the power, you know, getting the power back. It's like, oh one less dollar, you know.

unknown 13:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 13:15

Well, can I ask, do you have any story for the listeners um where you've experienced kindness and customer service? Like did where where does it show up in your work? I mean, we haven't gotten to your current work yet, but have you do you have you ever experienced some exceptionally kind um memory or something that happened in your life?

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Certainly. I would say when the customer is crying, and like for good reason, obviously, not you know, bad reason, but they're just happy, you know, that you were able to do what they needed, and maybe they were experiencing a really rough time. It's like it's usually there was a there was a couple of instances where this happened where the lady or the gentleman, they were just, you know, there's a car accident because this is this is car insurance was a part of this. So then there's a car accident, they're freaking out. Um, they survived. Because obviously, when they call and say, I gotta report an accident, first thing, is everyone okay? Let them let them tell you what's going on.

SPEAKER_04 14:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

And and then you would get them over to claims after telling them, you know, if they had questions, obviously. And you'd be surprised how often there's an emotional impact if you're just that calm in the storm, if you will, right? It's that calmness. So that's one thing. Um I'm trying to think of another great example of of kindness uh waiving fees. That was another one, too. You know, you make someone's day, right?

SPEAKER_04 14:46

Yes, yes, it can. And I've been in that boat before, you know, where something is insufficient, but all of a sudden everything coming, you don't know it. And then before you know it, you have like 10 NSF fees, and you're strapped for money as it is, so you just think, oh, they're never gonna refund anything. And there have been many times where they're like, you know what, Pam, we want to help you out. You've been a great customer up to this point, so we'll just we'll just refund them all. I mean, it was like you think that they had just given me the Taj Mahal. But there is kindness out there, and sometimes there are people where I find it's hard to maintain. Do you ever feel like their kindness is difficult to maintain?

SPEAKER_00 15:34

For me, I guess it really depends on what the situation is. Like I feel like I'm genuinely trying to be kind all the time, if I can help it, you know. But it does require a bit of energy depending on what's going on in your life. Just like we're talking about at the beginning of the episode. It's just like if there's a lot of things weighing you down, it's like, I don't know, there's there's there's bills, there's uh I don't know, so you gotta go to the doctor for something, you're not so sure what's gonna happen. You name it. Um it can weigh heavy on you. So I think it's always best to think start with kindness, right? Always start with kindness, even if it it's tough, you know, even give them a smile. I don't know, if if it's a in you know, personal interaction as opposed to over the phone. Or show the smile in when you talk, because people can always tell when you're smiling when you're talking, right? It's like, oh yes, yes. You can tell. So always start with that and then try your best to just remember that they don't know what you know, right? They're not aware that these are the way that we deal with waiving fees. This is not the way that we're supposed to do this type of coverage or whatever it is you're trying to help them with, right? Try to help it make it easy to understand. And that's another way you can be kind, right? It's oh now they know what they're up against. Now they know what's going on. They there's more calming from that too. Because when I think we don't know something, that uncertainty, that ambiguity, it can really bring in a lot of like, oh I guess, I guess, anxiety, right? The cortisol is rising. Oh my gosh, you know, I don't know what's going on, and now they're charging me for this, and oh my gosh, I don't, you know, that starts to happen for a lot of people. And so that's another part of what it means for kindness. It doesn't just have to be like you were smiling and you were happy. It could also mean like what you're doing, the actions, and then the experience for the customer. I think that's really strong too.

Why Customer Service Builds Character

SPEAKER_04 17:31

Love that so much. It really resonates with me because that's something I talk about often on the show. And the anxiety you mentioned, a lot of times when we are performing, you know, we're not behaving in the manner that we normally would, that compounds over time, right? And you just keep holding it in, keep doing what you're supposed to do, checking all the boxes at work, at home, you know, however, whatever you need to do, you keep doing it because it has to be done, but you may not be feeling it in inside of you. And so we have named it, we call it the quiet depletion. And quiet depletion, a lot of people suffer from that. And then it starts showing itself over time with um unhealthy habits. It could be over-drinking, overworking, you know, over pleasing, overeating, all the things, you know, that we reference as a binge. And it's not just food. But what happens is you just you're trying to be kind, but you're not feeling it inside. You feel numb, you don't really feel anything. You're just going through the motions. But people can people know this because, like you said, smiling on the phone, well, they can't see your eyes. But if you're in person and you're smiling and your eyes aren't, then you know instantly that they're not really feeling it. And so being genuine, this is where I'm leading with this. Being genuine is very important. But how do you, how do you make sure that you're really feeling kind inside your heart and your soul? Well, you know it. I mean, you have to remind yourself, you have to take a moment to remind yourself that you not only need to be kind to others, you need to be kind to yourself. And it is a superpower, David. It really is. If you give kindness, it feels good. It makes you feel good about yourself. But if you know, receiving it feels great too. But when you give kindness freely and genuinely, then it it helps you feel better about the person you are. That's why it feels good to do it. We we want to keep doing it, but you know, quiet depletion can be a big problem physically, eventually, if you don't address it.

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Yeah, and I think back to some of the some of the works I've read that that talk about kind of bits and pieces of that, where it's like let's say you're feeling that depletion. It's like, oh no, I'm I'm smiling here, but I'm not smiling here. I'm like halfway, you know. Oh, it's so fake. You know, people sniff that up. Oof, you know? I think back to I read a David Goggins book and he talks about the cookie jar, right? So every time you're feeling down and you're you can't go on any further, you reach into this cookie jar, this metaphoric cookie jar. These are things that have happened in your life that you're grateful for, or things that have happened in your life that you have proven yourself to yourself, right? So you said every day I'm gonna work out for you know five times a week for a full year, and you managed to pull that off one year. Oh man, look at you reaching into the cookie jar. Remember that? You got feeling depleted, but you you bring that up and you're like, okay, hey, I've managed to do that before. All right, this isn't this isn't as crazy as it sounds, because we're our own biggest critic at the end of the day, right? I think it's we know everything that's going on. We know all of our weaknesses, we know all of our strengths. Well, if we're gonna do that.

SPEAKER_04 21:10

Well, if we focus on the weaknesses, I don't know why, but we do.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Yeah, I'll tell you why. Uh, and this is based on like the science of things, right? So it's kind of like, why do we have a negative bias? Why is it always the defaults is negative? It's like always think worst case before you think of best case, right? Right. And it's like, well, because the humans that survived long ago, they were those were the ones that survived because the optimists were like, oh, look at that bush shaking over there. It's probably nothing. And they walk over there and they get eaten by a lion. So now that that they don't have any babies to spread beyond if they hadn't already had babies. And then the ones who are like, oh, I don't trust that. Ooh, that could be something better. Those are the ones that survived, have babies, and so on and so forth. So um, that's one idea, anyway, as to why we always Go to the negative and why the negative is always such the greater thing that we think about as opposed to the positive. And I think that's one of the challenges of kindness, too, is because we are built that way, you know, from many, many years of generations. And so I think if you just focus in on, okay, am I helping this person or am I not? I think that's one way. Like if you're just looking at it from a transactional point of view, am I helping or am I not? And then if you want to take it even deeper, you can say, why am I doing this? Do I enjoy this? Or am I just doing this for a paycheck? Because I had to come to that fork in the road myself. Because I'm like, man, taking these calls all day. And sometimes I don't appreciate you. I mean, you can probably say that from personal experience, right?

Acts Of Kindness And Calming Storms

SPEAKER_04 22:48

Well, I have to say, I don't normally, I mean, I do get approached a lot. You know, the more uh seen you are for your works, um, the more people want to try and sell their services because, you know, they got to put food on the table too. And so I don't ignore them. I always respond with respect and just tell them I have like zero money in my account. And then they appreciate that and they're like, well, let me know when you are ready. But I loved your approach, David. And that's why I replied and responded because you were so genuine. You even had, you know, noticed my work and appreciated it and and let me know that. And so that matters. I thought it was very kind of you to know what I do, you know. And so that's why I responded. I replied to your your inquiry, you know. Um, so this you moved into mortgage lending, I think, correct? Yes. Which carries an entirely different kind of pressure, I'm sure. What was the most challenging about that chapter of your life?

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Oh boy, where to begin? You know, I think that's the best way. If I'm looking at it from the standpoint of, oh, it wasn't my fault, which I never really like looking at it from that point, if I'm being honest. I like to try and be as accountable as possible. I know it's you couldn't control everything, yes. But as far as like being able to feel like you have more control over situations, that you can't, the factors you can control. So for me, it was like, yeah, the markets were rough.

SPEAKER_04 24:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

I think we've been at six, seven percent for well over almost four years now, you know, which by comparison of like longer data, that's obviously not that bad when you're looking at like the 80s and stuff, but right now is when it matters, right? So that that's that that was one challenge that technically didn't have any control over. Um, and I would say the other one is that there's just a lot of gatekeeping in the mortgage lending space because when people go to look for a house, the first thing they think of is not a mortgage loan officer. Heck, most people don't even know that job exists.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Yeah. Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

They think, look, I'm looking for a house. I want to go talk to someone who can show me those houses. And that's a real estate agent or a realtor, right? There is a difference technically. Um, not by much. And essentially, as a loan officer, the challenge is if you can't get customers outright, which tends to be the case because most people don't even know that you exist. The next challenge is like, okay, well, then that means I need to be a partner with a real estate agent who would be willing to pass on business to me. They're showing the houses, but they're not dealing with the finances, right? That's supposed to be my job. So building that trust, it was difficult too, because even they're starving because they're not getting as much production as they're used to getting.

SPEAKER_04 25:40

Well, and repeat, repeat business too, you know, selling and buying, selling and buying. I'm not a realtor, but I have lots of them in my family. Yes. And yes, they're one of their most important right relationships is with the mortgage lender. Um because here in Texas, I don't know where else, but I mean, we when we were uh house shopping, we had to be qualified first to see what how much of a house we could get.

SPEAKER_02 26:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 26:07

But you know, that mortgage lender, they know you inside and out, and they know everything so that you're not gonna get excited about a house that you absolutely cannot afford. And it wouldn't help you, really.

unknown 26:20

No.

SPEAKER_04 26:20

Who wants to do you know, that they can't pay for?

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Yeah, exactly. So, you know, for the listeners out there, I recommend going through a loan officer first. Yes, to your point, um, you're gonna shoot down some dreams, but at least now we're in reality, right? Because you gotta think about these banks. You gotta look at from the lens of the banks. They're gonna look at your finances, and like you said, you're you're basically naked financially in front of people. Um a lot of people are uncomfortable with that. That's why a lot of people don't like talking about finances. Same as a doctor, right? So you're there and they're gonna tell you this is how much house you can afford based on all the factors, and then you go house shopping. If we're really doing it, in my opinion, the the best way, um, that's the way you would do it. But again, most people don't think that way. They think, look, I just want to check out some houses and I want to see potentials, and that's gonna make me happy, it's kind of kind of give me an idea of what's out there. And so they usually just start the house on before they even talk about the finances.

SPEAKER_04 27:23

Well, this is so important because um even my son who works in investing and he he's very familiar with the market. But I was wondering, do you find that when people aren't up front with you or you know, honest about their situation, and then you just can't hide it, you know? So once you realize what it is, I mean, day after day, do you find that more people are uh un, you know, they're not telling you the truth. They're not lying or trying to hide it because they know you're gonna see it anyway. But I guess uh misleading is the word that I'm looking for. Do you day after day of getting people like that, or do you find that most people are just pretty much appreciate knowing what their situation is up front?

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 28:17

How do you not get disappointed? How do you not get disappointed in people?

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Okay, that's a great question. Um I would say you have to remind yourself that you're the professional. Okay, so that means you're gonna know more about this subject than most people coming your way. Not everyone, but but a lot of people. And so you gotta look at it through the lens of empathy. I think that definitely helps when it comes to like, oh, they weren't being straightforward about that. They said they had no debt and yet they just got themselves a car. We got to do everything over again because here we are in the middle of trying to get this closed, and then they did that move and they just didn't know, or they bought furniture, right? They bought furniture because they thought they were, we weren't at the closing table yet, folks. So that means if you go and you put furniture on finance, up, that starts the whole process over again. So you got to be very careful. Um, and I think setting good expectations, great expectations, if you can help it, that that really is another game changer, too. Because as long as they you know they understand, okay, during this spot, these are the things we can do, and this is what we're trying to accomplish, make sure everyone's on board. And if they are, it tends to be a better experience for them and definitely a better experience for you as a professional, because then you know, okay, great, they're not gonna go out there and buy all that furniture while we're trying to get this across the closing table. And once it's closed, okay, yeah, go crazy, go get whatever furniture you want. I don't care at that point because now the transaction is closed, you have your house, and it's not gonna affect anything or start things over to push it out another two weeks or whatever it uh the situation is. So I think uh having empathy is the the key thing to answer your question. Empathy, yeah, knowing, hey, I'm the professional, I studied for this, I trained for this, I have seen a lot of situations like this, and they haven't, and that's okay.

Naming Quiet Depletion

SPEAKER_04 30:06

And we've had great mortgage lenders in the past because you know, our situation was we thought bleak. We didn't even think that we could qualify for anything at one time. And they let us keep our dignity, you know. Even after seeing everything and and exposed to the banks, um they still the mortgage lender was able to sustain our dignity, which was very important for us to move forward. And if we couldn't qualify for something or people that I know that can't qualify, it would be so great if the mortgage lender would, you know, suggest or recommend, you know, a pr an expert in finances so that they could help them learn and unlearn a lot of bad habits, you know, and then feel feel good maybe in the in the near future about their finances. It's just that they don't they don't know. They don't they don't know and they don't understand why it's not working. It's like weight. You know, you want to lose the weight, but you just keep going up and down and you don't know why. And it just takes someone explaining to you this is why.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 31:17

I cannot do this. And so you shared that there was a defining reason you left customer service and became your own boss. Can you tell me about that turning point?

SPEAKER_00 31:29

Well, uh, not having a choice in the matter is definitely one big thing. Um, because uh unfortunately there was a technical scenario, and I don't want to like go into the nitty-gritty details, but basically there was a timing schedule situation that went on for far too long, and they weren't happy about that. And so instead of having after having fixed it and just continuing forward as if nothing happened, they really dragged their feet on that one. I think it took a long time for them to just tell me, hey, sorry, you gotta go.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Um, so that was kind of rough. But at the same time, to be surprisingly, I did feel a little relieved that I didn't have to take phone calls anymore. Um not to say that, you know, I didn't enjoy the conversations or I didn't enjoy the job overall, but just to go, you know what, I don't have to do like 10 more hours because I did a four by ten shift. So it was like 10 hours a day of just, you know, call after call after call after call after call. Did a little processing on the back end too. So like part of the day was calls, part of the day was processing, like stuff they would email and fax in. But yeah, that's basically what happened in a nutshell. Like, you know, they let me go. And at that point, I was like, you know, I spent almost 13 years at this, and they let me go that easy. I feel like there's there's gotta be something wrong about how much leverage the other entity has over me of my own well-being and my own life. It it was really a moment of reflection, right? It's like, hey, that was really risky, just all of your eggs in the one basket as far as income. And I think it's better, it's harder, don't get me wrong, it's harder, and I'm sure you know exactly what I'm talking about. It's much harder going in your own direction, being your own boss, but it's not only more rewarding, but I feel like it's also where you can really make the most of your time. Because we're only given 24 hours a day. Everyone, it's the great equalizer, right? No, the richest person in the world and the poorest person, they got 24 hours, right, to do something in a day, whatever that is.

SPEAKER_04 33:38

It's time that passes anyway.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Exactly. It marches on, as they say, right? So it's like, hey, what can I do that can compound the income if I put in the harder work for that direction, that entrepreneurial direction. And that's where I said, hey, loan officer sounds great because I mean everybody wants a house, right? That was kind of the initial, you know, thought loss. Everybody wants a house at some point. Well, most people. And um, I was thinking, well, I don't have to sell that, because you know, coming from customer service to sales, that's a pretty big, you know, difference in what you do. Um, so that was one of the things where I was like, yeah, okay, let's let's help people finance their homes. This would be great. And that's what started that journey. Um, unbeknownst to me, of course, all the gatekeeping and the challenges that followed thereafter. Definitely should have put in far more effort. But when it's just you against you and you've got nothing to, you know, kind of copy after, emulate, and you've got no one kind of helping you along the way, like other people that are right there in the trenches with you, and they're growing their business while you're growing. Like you don't have that synergy. It's just like it's very difficult to not only stay focused, but also to do the things that move the needle, right? I think that's very challenging.

SPEAKER_04 35:00

Well, and it is. And someone once told me, um, if you're ever second guessing, you know, having your own business or come, you know, having your own thing, working for yourself, um, just think about when you work for someone else, you're working for their dreams, not your own. And, you know, there are people that are completely content to be the Indian, so to speak, you know, work for someone else. They don't want to deal with all of that because that's the first lesson I learned with my first company is that, you know, you can no longer do your craft. You know, you m the graphic design, I had to hire other graphic designers and just manage people. You know, and I could didn't get to do my creative thing and I missed it, you know, because it's just a whole other world to manage people.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 35:55

But if you've been in customer service, you have the journey that that you and I have, then we can uh be empathetic and compassionate for people that work for us, you know, and and be able to read them when they're having a good day or a bad day, you know, and understanding where they're at, you know, instead of judging them. And you've even been in mortgage lending where you it's probably easy to judge people based on their history. But we don't know the whole story behind that. You know, it's just like the man sitting with the sign at the at the at the traffic light.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

Right.

SPEAKER_04 36:33

You know, we judge him, you know, as being a loser or a drug addict or whatever, but we don't know his story. We really don't. He deserves a smile from someone. And because he feels failed, right? And so maybe you felt failed when they let you go from your job, but because you had applied yourself so much to the job, you'd poured a lot into it. But you were not a failure. You were just gonna, and some people think they have to start over, but you don't. You just pick up where you left off, you know.

Mortgage Lending Realities

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Funny story, actually. Um, when they let me go, my wife was freaking out. She's like, Oh my god, you know what are we gonna do? What what's going on? What are we gonna do now? But me, I was I was all smiles. I was like, they let me go. They let me go. Oh my god. 13, almost 13 years of 10 hours on the phones, and they don't know what they did. They they literally shot themselves in the foot. That was a lot of training, that was a lot of uh, you know, tenure. Uh I was training their people, you know, I helped them with lawsuits and a bunch of things, programming, all that stuff. So it's it's funny how that went. And then and then we went to Europe. You know, it was just like, yeah, did I really get fired? It doesn't feel like it, but yeah. So yeah, it was a weird, it was definitely not the normal experience when it comes to being let go, to say the least. Uh, but it was just a huge weight lifted off me. I'm like, oh, that means I have to do something different now. You know, it's like God's pushing me to go in a different direction, you know, because I've I'm I'm a God-fearing man. So I would say, yes, that that's what it was. I wasn't gonna do it on my own because I'm comfy, I have I have income coming in. We're we're trying to, you know, move things in different directions, whatever our goals are. At the time it was travel mostly because we just needed to get that out before we started having kids. We are have we have a kid now, so obviously we're past that chapter, but it was a lot of like, hey, we were in a season. Exactly. And so it was just like, we're not thinking, oh, you know, let's try and make this as explosive as possible. So retirement is just amazing. It's like, yeah, I started doing that like 2020s when I started really getting into finance. Like I went down the YouTube rabbit hole and was just like, okay, let's uh let's find out what this is about. Oh, wow. If you can control your finances, you can really control a lot of aspects of your life. This is really fascinating.

SPEAKER_04 39:06

A lot of anxiety falls off the board.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Yes, I'm sure. Yes, absolutely. Relationship issues, uh friendship issues. Like if you get finance right, everything else kind of falls into place uh a lot of the times because what you have to do in order to get finances right is complementary to what you got to do to get your health in order in order to have great relationships, in order to build an amazing business or create something cool if you're an artistic person, that kind of thing. So it I think that it connects in that way is what I've seen.

SPEAKER_04 39:39

Do you think that, I mean, we teach delay the binge, which is all about a purposeful pause, taking a moment to really think about why I am about to do this thing that doesn't serve me well? And that could be the case with finances. I mean, that plagues a lot of us. And if we're stressed or anxious, the first thing we want to do is go spend, you know, to relieve the stress temporarily, but then it bites us in the bottom later. So is that one of the things that, like since you're in the financial space now, you know, is that the beauty of helping others in that air arena, helping them realize, okay, so I see a habit here and it's not serving you, and it won't serve you in your retirement. I mean, that's gotta make you feel good that you're you're helping them acknowledge that.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

Yes, absolutely, 100%. It's it's sometimes going against what they're telling you. Um that is part of the job being a financial advisor because you they told you what their goal was. They said, this is what I want, and I want it in this amount of time. And then you looked at, okay, where are they at? And then you realize, well, they're not gonna get there if they keep doing XYZ, right? Right. Whatever those things are. And so something's gotta give. You won't get where you want to go in the time frame you want to get there if you keep doing XYZ. So either we can extend the time horizon, where okay, yeah, fine. Eventually you'll get there, sure. Hopefully you will. Or we can say, look, let's take a long, hard look in the mirror and go, which one of these things am I okay with being without for a season or for a while or indefinitely?

SPEAKER_04 41:28

Well, do you find that um the meaningful piece has to be you can't have people just change overnight? They can't, they can't do, undo all the bad patterns that they've developed over a long period of time. And now financially, they're seeing the results of that. So the meaningful, the because you're very mission-oriented. I don't know if you realize that. So the mission orien orientation of you uh would be to take them in small steps, right? First, you know, you need to do this. And then when they, if they, if they are successful at that, then you take them to the next step. I that's how I see investing. You know, like let's take little baby steps.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

Yeah. Yeah. I think I think back to Dave Ramsey on this one. Um so in his Ramsey Solutions organization, they're always talking about there's two different ways to get out of debt, for example, as just like a structure. And one way is the avalanche method, which those who are listening are not familiar. Basically, you look at all of the interest rates of all the different debts you have, and whichever one's the highest, that's the one you need to pay off first. Now, mathematically speaking, that makes sense because you would pay the least amount of interest given your situation. However, that's not the method and the path that is you find the most success on. The actual successful path is the snowball method, where you basically take the smallest balance of your debts and you pay that off first, and then you get that small win. Ooh, the dopamine hit. Oh, that feels good. Maybe I'll just, now that I've done that, I can take what I was paying on that one and I could use it for the next one. Yes. Yes, you can. So then you go into the next one and keep on doing it till you're till you're out of debt. So basically, either one gets you out of debt. It's just, even though ones makes more sense mathematically and you pay less interest, it's not as gratifying as, hey, I just knocked out one of those debts. You know, so think of it that way too. Because if you were thinking about like, okay, it's a habit that's been built over time. Here they are doing it. How are we going to change that? It's baby steps.

SPEAKER_04 43:41

We that we study a lot on the I I love the neuroscience of the brain when it comes to um unhealthy habits and patterns. And the lower, I call it the cave. It's funny that you referenced cavemen earlier, but the lower portion of our brain is the short-term, I just want to help you. Right now, feel better, sort of protective part of our brain. And that's where, you know, we do the thing shopping, spending, eating, drinking, all of that to temporarily relieve what's really going on. So, I mean, I'm sure that you provide some therapy in your line of work because to get people to realize why are you really overspending? Why are you really making this choice instead of this one that you know is better for you? You know, do y'all do you find that you do that a lot in your line of work?

SPEAKER_00 44:31

Yeah. It's it's a matter of finding the root cause of what it is. And and for some folks, they'll take it at face value. You tell them, hey, stop doing that, and they say, okay, I'll do that. And then you notice they don't do it because now they're being held accountable by somebody. So to save face, they just won't, even though they probably want to. Like you're not seeing that that struggle. Um, I think a great book uh that you've probably read, and I'm still in the process of reading, but I've seen a lot of podcasts with a guy, uh, James Clear and his Atomic Habits, right?

SPEAKER_04 45:01

Oh my goodness, I I've read it three times. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

Ah, so there you go. You're a veteran then on the atomic habits. But it's just like you have to find ways to maybe not necessarily get rid of the habit, but find something that you can replace with it.

SPEAKER_04 45:17

Right, you've got to replace the bad pattern with the good pattern.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

Exactly. Exactly. So it's just like uh I think it was a different book, actually. I think it was Darren Hardy's The Compound Effect, where he talks about that, where he says, actually, you know, I I'd always like to eat a piece of chocolate cake after dinner, but I noticed that my gut line was getting bad. So instead, I was thinking about it and I was like, you know, I really just want the sweetness. I don't really want the whole cake. I just want that little sweetness at the end just to kind of, you know, put a little period on my meal. So then he decided I'm gonna get two Hershey's kisses at the end instead. It worked. It gave him the same, whatever he needed, and he didn't overcompensate. And so it's similar when I'm thinking about bad habits, when I'm thinking about in my own life, how do I give rid of something? It's like, well, I tend to, when we finish a meal, I'm just gonna keep eating. I don't know if it's a guy thing, but I'm definitely like, okay, uh, we're watching something on TV, I got a snack on something. And for me, that fix was like, okay, get some gum. I don't think gum is the healthiest thing in the world, but hey, get some gum.

SPEAKER_04 46:18

And as long as I'm chewing on something, I don't actually need anything else. Well, my answer is that's how I came up with delay the binge, is that, and that's my next book, but it's it's all about uh the chocolate cake, for example. If I want to eat a big old piece of chocolate cake, I know I've educated myself. I know that's not good for me. It's not going to serve me well. But I really want it because I'm stressed or I'm anxious or I'm upset emotionally. So I pause and then tell myself, okay, like a child, I can't eat this now, but I can have it tomorrow if I still want it. So for some reason, that delay, you know, sets off the brain in a way that you no longer want it because you think in your mind, you've taken control. I I can have this tomorrow if I still want it. It's just a delay that serves you.

Expectations, Trust, And Dignity

SPEAKER_00 47:09

A pause. We can take that same idea. And this has been said numerous times on the Ramsey side of things, like we were talking about earlier, Dave Ramsey stuff. But hey, online shopping, you're on Amazon, you're on Walmart, whatever it is, right? Those are the big ones right now. But anyway, and you're like, oh man, I really want to buy that thing, but you don't need it. Like you really thought about it. You're like, I don't really need it. Was it a sale? Was it a just it's nice to have? Did you just get that fixation, that coping mechanism like you're talking about? Well, you put it in the cart, you just don't buy it yet. Sleep on it. You still want it tomorrow? Okay, fine. All right. Like that's that's one way to kind of, you know, assuming that it's not going to put you in like horrendous debt, obviously the caveat is Well, and you usually don't want it the next day.

SPEAKER_04 48:00

And whatever was you were feeling and feeling is now, you know, it's tapered off. So you no longer need to um cope with whatever your behavior is. So that is why all even being in the band, all right, you were doing what we call the plus one, which is plus one theory is doing your best plus one more. I mean, you weren't sure if you could do it, but you did it anyway. You applied yourself. And you take all that from your past and you've applied it to what you do now, but you choose joy in it. You choose kindness. And not everyone does that, I want you to know. So I just I have to personally thank you because that gave me hope in people again just in dealing in my one 15-minute call with you. So it really, and that's what I always tell people: kindness is not to be taken for granted. Because growing up, let me tell this this little bit to you. Uh, we were starving because we had no adults for three or four weeks sometimes. So it was summer, no free school lunches. So we'd go down to the convenience store and steal hot dogs, weenies and the buns, and then take them home, put them under our shirt. Well, one day the owner of the store, his name was Mac, and he said, Hey, you two, you stop right there. We thought, oh no, we're going to jail. But we turn around and he's holding a bottle of mustard. And he said, Y'all have been taking my hot dogs for weeks. Don't you want some mustard? And we said, Yes, sir. He goes, Don't steal from me, girls. If you need food, you ask me and I'll give it to you. And so I left that day. I'd never experienced kindness. I didn't even know what he did. I didn't know what to call it. All I knew is that I wanted to be like Mac. He's impacted me to this day, David. Mac. And it took him what, four seconds? And it's impacted me for the rest of my life. He made that difference. So we all have that ability to, in whatever job we have, and whatever we're doing, we have that that connection, that power to impact people in just a few seconds. And we do make a difference. You do make a difference. You made a difference to me. You saw me, you saw my work. So being seen is very important for me. Because I was unseen for so long. But anyway, I just want to thank you for that. So living in harmony day to day. You said that that's you, that's what you love. So how do you how does harmony actually what does that look like in real life?

SPEAKER_00 50:47

Yes, I I think I actually did learn this from where I'm working now. Um, at least put it in more of a structural aspect. But harmony means not everything's always in balance. Sometimes you're spending a little bit more time on work, sometimes you're spending a little bit more time with family, sometimes you're spending a little bit more time on recreation. And that's okay. It's just as long as you can be present in whatever it is that you're doing, that's really important. And so obviously, financial advisor space, um, you can have meetings that run pretty late, uh, because that's the only time people can talk, right? Or it's maybe it's on the weekend sometimes, and that's okay. Uh, you just gotta look at it and go, you know what? I am serving this person. So right now, in that moment, my full attention, my full focus is gonna be on that meeting with that person, and that's all. Would you with family? Same thing. And I think that that's really what harmony is about. It's just finding a way to just go through the ebbs and flows of where you're needed, when you're needed, and just finding a way to make that work. So when I say work-life balance, I feel like you know you're looking at a scale, right? Yeah, and it's like it can only be one way or another, and it's kind of restricting. But a harmony is more like, you know, it's kind of a circle, and you have the different points, different parts of your life, and it's this like kind of amoeba-looking thing that just moves around, right? Yeah. Oh, a little bit more, a little bit more, just depending on what's going on. And it best serves your life and the lives of others. I think that that's a great way. Now, as life goes on, obviously your your priorities can change, and maybe you have more time, you you you can afford to have more opportunity with your time and things like that. But in the middle of the busy work, in the middle of the developing of a family, in the middle of uh trying to find a balance, it's it's more harmony than it is balance.

Getting Fired And Finding Freedom

SPEAKER_04 52:49

Right. Someone once asked me, what's the hardest thing? And the first answer was marriage. It's the hardest job I've ever had. But also um is balance. You know, how do you I'm very passionate about my work, but I'm more passionate about my family. But sometimes those two, the the balance collide. I mean, I can't sometimes I can't see what's more important. Do I go and speak at this event that's going to serve me well? Or do I go to my grandson's birthday party? You know, sometimes you just have to to choose. Just like you choose joy, you know, you have to choose balance. You know how I get the answer to things like that, tough questions like that? I'm uh you can you can use this in your line of work if you want. Sure. But when I have a decision to make, I ask myself, how do I feel? I'm gonna pretend I say no. How does that make me feel? And then I think about it. And then I some, okay, if I say yes, how does that make me feel? And I choose the better of the two.

SPEAKER_02 53:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:51

Yeah. It works. It's such a mental game, but it's it's it's again neuroscience, but you know, that's how I make hard decisions.

SPEAKER_00 54:00

Yeah, I think that's one of the bigger things. I like that. I'll have to I'll have to steal that from you. Just like next time I'm gonna make a decision of something where I have, you know, two particular things that are that are needing my time at the same time slot.

SPEAKER_04 54:13

Um Yeah, and so this is my final question, I promise. Um, I could talk to you all day. But um financial stress is one of the biggest contributors to what I call quiet depletion. I mentioned it earlier. For those who may find themselves placus pressure on their finances or even using spending as a way to cope with stress, you know, what perspective would you want the listeners to consider when they're struggling with that? I mean, what is there anything that you can help them with today? What's the first step they can take?

SPEAKER_00 54:54

Well, to begin with, I'll get a little biblical.

SPEAKER_04 54:57

So for those who are not believers, take this as, you know, we are very much I am very much, I'm a retired youth minister, so uh yes, of course, of course.

SPEAKER_00 55:06

But I mean, uh, for those, for those who maybe I'm not trying to, you know, say, oh, you guys don't believe, so you know, you can't use this. No, no, no. This is for everyone. Um, it's spiritual. Exactly. I I and I and I'm terrible. I I should remember this, but I forget exactly where in the Bible. But it talks about how look at the birds and look and see how they don't worry about how they're gonna get food, right? They just know that God's gonna provide, right? Or for those that believe in the universe, the universe will provide, right? So I'm sitting here going, that's the first thing to kind of eliminate the stress. Like, somehow, somehow, it's gonna be okay. And why? You're like, David, why is it gonna be okay? There's all these terrible things that are happening. Oh my god, what do I do? Because you're gonna make it okay. You are gonna find a way to make it okay. You gotta believe in yourself. That's another thing, too, because I think there's a lack of faith. And we're uh we are, like we said earlier, our own harshest critics, right? So we always just go to the negative and just going on this downward spiral into negative hood. But we need to remember that first. Now, when it starts getting to the point where you're like, okay, I've dealt with my emotions, I know things are gonna be okay because I'm gonna do everything I can to make it okay, right? Trying your darndest, good. That's where you want to be to begin with. Now, the next thing you go is, all right, how much did I make? Cool. Now I've got to break that down into segments. Okay. Now you'll hear a lot of different people talk about a lot of different things, but you got to do what's best for you. Now, maybe in this season where you have a lot of debt or you're really behind on things, you're trying to get your life together, you're gonna spend most of that money on those things. But always try your best to save a little bit. Could be$10. There's those small steps again. Exactly. See, we're going right back, see, full circle. So it's like save a little bit, okay? And you keep that going. And eventually, when you're through all of that season, you'll find out that, hey, you're doing better than most. So I think that that's when you start getting into like the math and you start figuring out, like, okay, what how what am I gonna do? You want to, as many people will say, I think it was the richest man in Babylon that said it, and also uh Ramit Sete from I Will Teach You to Be Rich, he says this all the time. So does Rich Dad, Poor Dad, Robert Kiyosaki. They'll all say this. You gotta pay yourself first. Okay, so when you're at that spot where you're actually earning money and you're trying to figure out what to do with it and you've kind of got a good handle on things, definitely pay yourself first. That's saving and building an emergency fund, right? Dave Ramsey will say that. Start the emergency fund first and then invest afterwards. And if you got debt, tackle that right after you've done that. Just attack that debt because the debt is gonna keep you in that same place and you want to get out there as soon as possible. So, whatever that means and whatever that takes, try to put that as your mantra. But before any of that, remember it's gonna be okay. And why? Because you're gonna do everything in your darndest to make it okay.

SPEAKER_04 58:10

Right. And I'll just add to that before we end today by saying, you know, you know what you're supposed to do, whether it's money, food, you know, working, whatever it is, drinking, you know what you should or should not do. And you need to ask yourself, if you have to journal every day when it happens, why? What's really going on? You know you shouldn't spend your money, you should save it, but we don't. Why? You need to ask yourself why. There are experts like David out there that can help you hold your hand and take you in those small steps to educate you, be curious, try to see what's the pattern here. What do I need to do differently? And when you go to someone like that, like David, that really genuinely cares about your future, um, I think that he could help point it out, you know, and and you just need to take it and use it for fuel to succeed. So, David, your story, it beautifully reflects everything I believe in deeply. The number one is that your past doesn't define you, it positions you, it prepares you. So, thank you for your time. Thank you so much. I just I can't. There's all kinds of aha moments here that I plan to use. So thank you for your wisdom.

SPEAKER_00 59:39

It's uh it's been an honor. Thank you for having me on the podcast now.

SPEAKER_04 59:42

Mm hmm. We'll talk soon.