When “What If?” Becomes Permission to Begin | Brandi Croghan

What if you did not need certainty before taking the next step?

Brandi Croghan, leadership consultant, speaker, founder of The What If Collective, and creator of the What If Mindset, joins Pam Dwyer to explore how two simple words can open the door to courage, connection, and meaningful change.

After an unexpected career transition and a difficult personal season, Brandi traveled alone to Spain to walk 116 kilometers of the Camino de Santiago. She began the journey carrying a 16-pound backpack and believing she needed to see the entire path ahead. What she discovered was that she did not have to carry everything, she was walking solo but was never truly alone, and she only needed to take the next step.

Pam and Brandi discuss why curiosity is more than asking questions. It is permission to consider another perspective, admit that we do not have every answer, and move through fear without waiting for fear to disappear.

They also explore the measurable relationship between connection, belonging, and team performance; why people resist change; how leaders can help people feel seen during uncertainty; and how to recognize when something we once carried has become too heavy to take any farther.

This conversation is a reminder that difficult moments do not require false positivity. Sometimes we need to let the moment hurt. We simply cannot build our home there.

Then we pause, stay curious, and take the next step.

CONNECT WITH BRANDI CROGHAN

Website: https://www.thewhatifcollective.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandi-croghan-founder-whatifcollective/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/therealwhatifcollective/

CONNECT WITH PAM DWYER

Website: https://pamdwyer.com/
Delay the Binge™: https://delaythebinge.com/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PamDwyerSpeaker

Pause. Choose. Build momentum. Finish stronger.

Transcript

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Why “What If” Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Delay the Bench Podcast, where we explore the pause between life's automatic reactions and our next intentional choice. I'm your host, Pam Dwyer. Have you ever noticed that one simple question has the power to change everything? Not because it gives you the answer, but because it changes the way you see the question. Today we're exploring one of those questions, What If. What if your greatest limitation isn't your circumstances, but the story you've been telling yourself about what's possible? My guest today is Brandy Krogan, leadership consultant, speaker, founder of the What If Collective, and creator of What If Mindset. For more than 20 years, Brandy has helped leaders and organizations navigate change, strengthen connection, and build cultures where people feel seen, valued, and inspired to grow. But what really caught my attention was her belief that curiosity isn't just something we have, it's something we can choose. And sometimes one simple question, what if, is enough to change the direction of an entire life. Brandy, I'm so glad you're here. Welcome to the Delay the Bench Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Oh, thank you, Pam. I'm thrilled to be here. I'm looking forward to this and looking forward to see where our conversation goes today.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Me too. I can't wait for the listeners to hear all of it. So

Brandy’s Road To Entrepreneurship

SPEAKER_00 1:38

I always like to begin before someone's work became their work. Who was Brandy before there was a what if collective? Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Well, you know, I had spent interestingly enough, right? I this whole um journey of entrepreneurship, of creating the what-if collective, uh, I feel like it's something I've been living long before I started officially, because I I grew up, um, my dad started a company. It was a plumbing company in a pool and spa. It ended up being pool pools and spas, and my it was a family-owned business. But I grew up with my dad, you know, just a solo entrepreneur building a company alone. He had two little kids and a wife, and he would sit out in the garage and do bids and take phone calls and and do all the things. And we would eat, you know, run and eat dinner with him on a job site. And I watched him build that company from the ground up, from from nothing. And now my brother runs it and it's a thriving business. Uh, but it was in my blood uh the whole time. And so I watched that, and it's so impactful watching that uh as you grow up and then you grow into your own career. And when you have that uh lens that you look through of a lifetime of watching somebody have the grit, the resilience to keep going when it's hard to keep going, keep going when people, when things go wrong all around you and you have to stay focused on uh on what matters, right? And getting the job done. And it's it's not always the easiest path. And so watching that as I grew up, it was such a it was such a natural thing for me to finally step into. But I'm gonna be honest, because I didn't take some brave leap and leave my corporate job, right? I was actually kind of whoop pushed out and um made to take the leap as part of a a reorg and a downsizing. I I worked mainly in for my most of my career, I was in the pharmaceutical and biotech industry. I started out in the commercial side of the business. I carried a bag as a salesperson for years and years. Um, and then I was downsized. That industry, by the way, for those that don't know it, is probably not unlike a lot of industries where there's just a lot of mergers, downsizings, buyouts. And so it becomes a part of life where you you just get displaced a lot uh as a result of those things. And so I was displaced early in my career around 2009, 2010, when the downturn in the US economy happened. And I couldn't find a sales job. I couldn't find a sales job. And so that was crazy, right? That's a little a pharmaceutical sales job, I should say. Uh had I was thinking, gosh, what can I do? Just go sell something. What do you want to do? And then I stumbled onto this training job for Estate Lauder Companies with a brand called Bumble and Bumble, if anybody knows it. I am a still uh loyal, loyal customer of Bumble and Bumble, but I became a product trainer. In essence, I would work with hairstylists as they were doing hair and I would train on the products and I would travel around doing it based in New York City and meatpacking. And it was the time of my life. It was amazing, but it opened the door. It changed the trajectory of my path because it showed me what learning and development was. I would stand in front of people and teach and inspire, and you see light bulbs go off in people, not because of me, but because of allowing myself to be a vehicle for relaying information, for inspiring other people, for listening, for asking questions and getting to the bottom of things. And then you see people um just get inspired and feel like, oh my gosh, I can do this. I can uh I can do something I didn't think I was gonna do before. And so I went back into the pharmaceutical industry um after about four years of that, and I wanted to be a trainer in that space. And so I did. I still on the commercial side of the business, became a trainer, and then I got involved as a stretch project in a lot of employee engagement work, um, diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging work, uh, employee engagement. And I shifted over into more of a global role then with H under an HR uh umbrella, doing that, doing a lot of talent development work, a lot of um connection, belonging. How do we get people to feel um as if they belong? And that's the lens I look at it through. And it's the foundation now of what if it was really born from that is if people inerrantly feel like they're not connected, like they're not belonging, they're never, we're never gonna have equity, we're never gonna have inclusion, we're never gonna have any of these things because people just don't feel like they belong somewhere. And so that was the basis of of the work is how do we make, how do we, how do I make people feel connected? And that work just um just snowballed. And then I was downsized after several years of being in that role. And um it kind of started almost organically. I I I kind of made a joke to a few people. They said, Hey Brandy, could you come back in and do a meeting for us? Could you do a workshop? Could you come in and speak to us on connection, team effectiveness, on belonging, right? Um, and I started joking because I I would go around the organization doing it for teams as they had off sites or big and small meetings. And so I half jokingly said, Well, yeah, I'll come in and do it if you if you want to pay me as a consultant, I'll come back. And they started saying, sure. Okay, fine, we'll do it. And so that's how this whole thing started. And I thought, well, what if, what if I just do this? What do I have to lose? And no other time in my career had I had that thought. It was never right. But for some reason, in this moment, it felt so right. And I had nothing to lose. And I was in a season of upheaval professionally and personally. So, I mean, uh, many people probably listening to this can relate. Like sometimes you have those seasons in your life where it's like, uh, it rains, it pours. That's where that came from. It's like, it's all hitting personal, professional, what else can go, right? So um, why not start a business in the midst of that? So I did, and here I am. Uh, and it's been just such an amazing journey, uh, such an amazing ride meeting the people I've gotten to meet and spend time and inspire and work with. And uh, it's just been such um an honor to do that and really just go out and be able to serve teams and serve leaders and and organizations uh it in this way through through what if? And it's been fantastic.

unknown 8:31

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Your whole journey you just described was bringing you to this place. I don't know if you realize that, but and that's my mantra. Your past doesn't define you, but it prepares you. And it was preparing you the whole time to be where you're at right now. Yes. I think that's beautiful. And you have built your work around those two very simple words, what if? And I'm curious, was there ever a single moment in your own life when those words stopped being hypothetical and became what's the word? Oh, transformational?

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Yeah. 100%.

Turning “What If” Into Fuel

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Well, I had started um, I this was several years ago. It was probably three, three, four years ago. I had watched either a podcast or um something with Bobby Brown, the makeup artist. And um, she had started a new line called Jones Road Beauty, which I am in love with. Uh, and so like shamelessly plugging all my like brands I love. Um, but anyway, so Jones Road Beauty, she was talking about it, but she said this thing. Uh called, she said, Well, what if I, I mean, I've already built a beauty umpire. What if I do this too, right? What if I start again? What if I do this? Uh, what if I build a cosmetics company? And a lot of times we we hear the words or we say them, right? How many times have any of us said the words or heard that we, oh, well, what if I, what if, what if? And a lot of times it's in a negative connotation. Oh, what if I had just done that? What if I had just and when I listened to her, it was this spark in me of, oh my gosh, this is something really positive, right? What if I do this? What's the what is the worst thing that can happen? And I actually got a um embroidered crew neck with the words what if on it. And it was from this designer. And I, I, I bought it. And I was, I was like, that spoke to me in that moment so much that I I I I bought in. I was like, yes, I'm I'm gonna, I'm gonna get this. And I I started bringing it with me when I would um do workshops for teams, and I would hold it up at the end and say, I just want to leave you with this sentiment of what if? And what can you do when you leave here today and just ask yourself that question? What if I have one conversation I've been putting off? What if I ask somebody for their perspective? I would have never asked. Just ask yourself just that one thing. What would it do for you? And I started leaving, leaving teams and leading leave, leaving leaders with that sentiment. And so as I pondered my my future uh after after being downsized, right? I started, you know, I think we all do this when we're starting something. It's, oh, what should I call it? What should I do? And uh, you know, I'm going through, I'm Googling, like, oh, uh, you know, names based on, I don't know, you know, like Italian phrases because I don't know. Uh so whatever I'm trying to do. And then it was so in front of me the entire time. And that was it. It's what if, what the what if collective. That's what I'm doing. And that sparked it.

The Camino Lessons That Stuck

SPEAKER_01 11:37

And truly, though, what came to life for the what if mindset was last June, in June of 2025, as I mentioned, I was, you know, having this moment where I felt like the world was unraveling around me as I knew it. And um, several years ago, I was in Europe and I had seen people hiking. Uh, it looked like they were just backpacking, and I was very intrigued by it. So I asked my tour guide, what are they doing? And they were hiking. Uh, there's trails through Europe. A lot of them are pilgrim walks, one particularly called the Camino. And I had that seed planted. And so last June, as this was happening, I had this little window of time, and I thought, I'm doing, I'm going to the Camino. I don't know what else to do. I mean, I could have gone to like a spa somewhere in maybe like Arizona. Um, but I I don't know what I chose to uh get on a plane, go to Spain and start hiking through Spain by myself on the Camino. But I I was in my mind, I just needed to strip everything away and reflect. And I wasn't going there to have anything to do with what if, anything to do with my consulting business. But and I all I knew was I walked out of my hotel the first day and I was supposed to follow these yellow arrows across Spain and end up in Santiago de Campistela at this at this cathedral. And um I walked the last 116 kilometers and I started walking. I just started walking that day. And on that journey, through those seven days of hiking through the the country, I found that the what if mindset, I mean, that was where it was born. It wasn't born in a boardroom, or it wasn't me, you know, talking to other leadership consultants or any of the work I had done before. It was, it was born as I was walking because I originally went out there to for personal reasons, but it started becoming so clear to me that the lessons I was learning were preparing me, like you just said, it was almost preparing me for what was to lie ahead. And that is that we don't have to carry things that are unnecessary. So I started out with this 16-pound pack that I felt so determined to carry across the country. I was like, I'm gonna carry this pack. Um, it was too heavy, it was it was just too much for me. And so by the end of the first day, it became very evident this has to go. And I met a couple and they looked at me at dinner and we were, I they were American too, and we kind of connected, like, oh my gosh, are you do you feel like you're gonna die today? Yes. And so after hiking 22 kilometers the first day with this 16-pound pack and the terrain was just incredibly steep, I I told them, I said, I feel like my knees and my ankles are just gonna give out. I don't think I can go on. And um, but I I've got this pack and I don't know what to do with it. Uh and they looked at me and they said, Brandy, did you know that for four euros you can have it sent to the next town you're gonna end up in tomorrow? Oh, just go to just go to the guy, go to them and give them four euros. They'll put a tag on your bag and tell them the town you're gonna be in. And I just stopped and looked at them. I'm like, I you mean that I can put this, you can I can put this down and I don't need to carry it, right? So that was a huge lesson for me because it was like, why am I carrying this out of pride? And how often do we do that in our life? It's like this obligation or um this pride that I will carry this. I'm not gonna let it down. I'm not gonna delegate something, I'm not gonna let somebody else do it. And the freedom that came from that for me was incredible. But also meeting that couple, um, it was incredible because the other lesson I learned out there was about connection and how very important it is. It changes the trajectory of everything. We were never meant to walk alone, whether that's in leadership, whether it's in life, whether it's um wherever, right? And a lot of times we think I can just do this by myself. I don't need anybody else. Um, but it's that connection to other people that saves us um in many times and our willingness to listen to other people's perspectives. But we were, you know, and a lot of times when I was out there, I thought I might be walking alone. Um I'm walking solo, but I'm not alone. Right. And I have Megan and Pablo who sat next to me to dinner. They saved my life, right? And I ended up seeing them like three days later on the trail. We had crossed paths again, and I was like, oh my gosh, right? Like that connection um that we had was in was incredible. And also, um, I didn't need to see the whole path in front of me to keep walking, right? And so when I felt like those moments of I can't go on anymore, it was like, don't go on, don't walk 10 kilometers, walk a step, just walk the next step, do the next thing, and then you're gonna get there. So we a lot of times we just it's like we wait till we have all the information. I need to see the whole thing ahead of me before I make a move and we we freeze. And so being out there, it's like those lessons about connection and not carrying what we don't need and not seeing the whole path. That's that those three things that's where the what if mindset came from. And so I came back and like, what if I build my own thing? I'm doing it right based on that. And that's that was the essence of where it came from out there.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Oh my goodness. That is incredible. That whole journey. And the whole time I was thinking several things. First of all, the importance of belonging. I mean, that's that's been all up in your journey. Just the importance of belonging, becoming vulnerable enough to connect and be willing to do that and learn, because we can always learn something from someone. And that's what I thought about. I said, she has had vessels all around you, even the shirt that says what if. It doesn't have to be a person that has to be a vessel for you to receive a message about what your calling is. It could be the shirt with what if on it and this couple that you ran into on this journey of yours. And by the way, my husband and I really want to take that hike. We want to do that at the El Covid.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Oh, I let's talk again because the the most well, it was just like my friends Megan and Pablo, right, that I met. There were so many people doing it with friends, with their partners, uh, for all different reasons, with their families. And I thought, what an amazing journey to take uh with your partner, right? And to to experience that. And some people, you know, they did it to just have that uninterrupted time to just be with each other and to talk and to hear the space around them or have empty space. Um, and so it is uh it is an it is an absolutely life-changing. I can I can see, I couldn't understand um fully. It's like anything else, right? You know, you don't understand fully until you do it the the the way it captivates people, but it was truly an adventure of a lifetime and something 100% I yes, I am cheering you on to do it.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

Yes, and and there's a movie out about it, about that trail. I don't know if you're aware of that. About a man that goes on that hike that lost.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Yeah, it's called The Way. Yes, it's called The Way, and um, it is beautiful. It's a beautiful, beautiful movie, and it captures the essence of that um that connection, right? So

Belonging As A Performance Lever

SPEAKER_01 19:31

it it captures the essence of of the connection you have with people and how connection is strength, right? And that's that's when I when I talk to teams and leaders and organizations, a lot of times people hear these things about, oh, you know, connection and that's fluff, right? And you know that and yours like, oh, these fluffy things, right? No, this is strength, it's power, right? It'll it will save your life uh sometimes. I mean, that's an extreme situation, right? But having connection, having the sense of belonging, um, it is it truly is such a powerful strength um for us as human beings. It's how we're wired to to live and learn and and go through this world, but also for organizations and teams, right? It is just it is a foundational part of the way that you uh change the trajectory of performance is that sense of connection, belonging, and it is a powerhouse uh tool that a lot of people don't fully lean into.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Well, and this message is more than ever needed. I think more and more corporations are realizing how important it is that that the entire team feels connected and like they belong, they perform better. It's just works better all the way around. And so I think they're finally realizing and recognizing that. This whole time I've been thinking about your what if. And it's really not a question at all. I think it's actually permission. Permission to think differently, permission to try to become. What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Oh, well, Pam. I mean, that is it's that it's so powerful what you just said, because that's uh absolutely what it is. And and it's the same concept of you know, curiosity isn't just a question. People think of that as asking questions, right? Oh, I ask questions. No, that's not what that is, right? But it is this this this sense of allowing ourselves and allowing allowing ourselves to break out of what we default to, because we just as human beings, we default to we default to our beliefs. I mean, we all look at life. Our perceptions, our perspectives of life, they're built from the experiences that we have had in our journeys, right? That's where we get our perspective. So nobody looks at two things, or nobody looks at the same exact thing the same way, right? You and I could look at a picture, we could look at whatever, and we're gonna see it differently, even though we're looking at the same thing. And so to allow ourselves to be open to asking a different perspective or considering a different way. And what if I don't have all the answers? What if I, what if there's a different way to look at this? What if somebody knows something I don't? What if there's something missing, right? And and when we give ourselves and allow ourselves the permission to be in that space and not, especially as leaders, because there's so many times where we feel like we have to have all of the answers. You know, as a leader, you feel like, oh my gosh, like I don't want to have that conversation. They're gonna ask me something that I don't know and I don't want to go there, and I don't want to get into that because I'm not gonna know what to say. And so what if we allowed ourselves that space to show up and not have not have all of the answers and just say, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Let's find out together.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

There's nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

And it's one of those things that is easier. I there are these things that I like to say, um, they're easy to say and hard to do. And there are so many things that are so easy, so easy for us to say. But when you try to put them into practice, it's hard. It's hard to have a conversation when I mean it, you know, and especially the way organizations are under and leaders are under so much pressure right now. Pressure for performance, pressure for um growth and so much change just happening constantly, constant transformation, right? That we call it transformation. And uh people just it's like I don't have time for that. I don't have time. I've got to go to the next thing. And what I've been so inspired by is when I have a leader call me, and whether it's an entire business unit with hundreds of people, or whether it's their team of 12 or 14, when I have an organization or a leader carve out 120 minutes or you know, in their agenda to have their teams sit with us and spend time with it. It's incredible. And I I mean, the more that it happens, it's like, this is amazing that we're carving these moments out to allow people to show up and be in this space. And what you hit on something so, so amazing, because I I also am a person of data, probably all the years in pharmaceuticals, right? Um, but I love one of the things I love doing so much, especially with commercial and revenue, revenue generating teams and sales teams, right? Because it's like, well, I don't care about this. I just need to do, we need to generate performance, we need to generate revenues, and absolutely you do. But who who wants that, right? Who wants the highest performing sales team in the in the company? Like every hand goes up, right? Who wants to be number one? Every hand goes up. I love there's so much data. There's so many studies that show exactly the point that you were making about performance increase when people feel connected, when people feel like they belong, when we have a trusting team. I mean, there's actual data, right? And so people start really like to when I start talking about the data behind it, and you see people leaning into that, like, okay, I can sink my teeth into this. Um, because yes, it does feel good to do it. It does feel good. It feels good because we're human beings. This is how we're wired to operate. So it feels good to us, but it also, hands down, is the secret sauce for performance. I mean, it just is, and here it is, and it's all laid out.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

If anyone thinks that they're making any sort of impact on anything, their work, on people, they're going to feel better about themselves. And when you feel good about who you are and what you're doing, oh my gosh, the world is at your feet. Absolutely.

The Real Reason We Resist Change

SPEAKER_00 26:33

So many people I meet are actually afraid of change. They're afraid of who they'll be if they change, if they don't have this thing that they're struggling with. Who are they without it? Have you noticed or have you seen that out there?

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Oh my gosh. It were I, you know what? It's funny because I heard this analogy once and it was so great. And because it's so simple, right? Um, it's like, you know, and when you're a kid, you have your favorite cereal, and it's like, no, I love my whatever your favorites, you know, let's just call it cereal. Um but we have it, right? And it's like somebody could bring you the greatest cereal in the world, right? But you have your favorite. It's like, I'm not changing that. So even sometimes when change is good, people we are we're resistant to it. And it's not unnatural, right? It's so it's it's okay. It's okay to feel uneasy with change. I think that's just a natural reaction. And there what I see is when organizations and leaders try to use these words, you know, like transformation and like it's a good thing. Like everybody, this is so good. And everybody's sitting here thinking, oh my gosh, no, you know what that means? It means I'm gonna lose my job. It means half of us are gonna get cut. It means there's gonna be a reorg. It means this, right? Um, and so when we lean into it where some change, there is, there are bad things that happen and we were afraid of those things. That's normal. Yeah. But and so for us to go into, and you know, I so I I guess I say that to say, you know, to have people, I I I've seen time and time again, you know, leaders and senior leaders stand up and they try to make change as if it's all so good, like what you're saying, right? Like, oh, this is just so great. And and it's okay to make it so that change that you know, get get that fear concept out on the table and just acknowledge it for people. And some change is really great and really exciting, but it doesn't matter because as human beings, we're just wired to resist it anyway. It's like that's my favorite breakfast cereal. Why are you messing with it? Right. I mean, it could, it's like, why? I I mean, I love it. And so somebody could do, I mean, there's that concept to it, but then there's also um as leaders that you know what? I don't have all the answers. I don't know what this might bring. If I can tell you something, I will tell you something that it that I know and I can help, we can help each other together. But acknowledging, letting people feel seen, heard, and understood, where it's like, oh my gosh, my they see me. Like I understand this might be scary. Just that, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Just letting somebody know they were seen. It's so important. And a lot of times people will have a lot of pain attached to the reason they love the cereal. Let's use that as an example. And maybe it's because their grandmother always gave them that cereal every morning when they stayed with her, and now she's no longer with us. And so the pain and the association and the comfort is in that cereal. So now someone's asking them, you need to give that up. But they don't want to go there. Uh-huh. I don't want to look at that pain. So I'm just going to stay with my cereal. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 30:12

Because it isn't the cereal, it's grandma. Like when you're going on, people. Yeah. And so that's where the curiosity, you know, even as for leaders, right? Um, this idea of anchoring everything in curiosity, which is what the what if mindset is is really anchored in, is having that moment, right, where as a leader, okay, there's change happening. Oh, my team is freaking out. Maybe let me try to understand like, what is it about this that is scaring us? What's scaring you? And then you find out, oh my gosh, it's not the change, it's not the serial. I mean, this person has, it's their grandmother, right? And then we can talk through that, right? I mean, it's so a lot of times you uncover, but we get so caught up that staying anchored in curiosity and coming back into asking asking a question or getting a perspective that maybe doesn't feel natural to us, yeah, or a solution that might not feel natural. It opens up so much that when when we aren't anchored in that and we just we're staying in in what our default is, it it closes us off from that growth and learning and understanding, um, to where we can help each other and serve as leaders and be there for people to to help them grow, to help people see things maybe through a different lens.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Exactly. Exactly. I love that we reference the pain as something they're hanging on to and not recognizing themselves without it.

What You Need To Set Down

SPEAKER_00 31:55

I love when you were talking about your hike on the El Camino, I love that you said we often carry things we were never meant to carry. And that that made me wonder how do we know the difference between responsibility and identity, between carrying something for a season and then allowing it to become who we are?

SPEAKER_01 32:19

It's such a good question. And if I had the answer to that, you know. You might be up on a mountaintop talking to the masses. I mean, I know. I'd be out on the Camino. Um, but listen, I you know, that's such a good question because it and and there's no I I think on our each of our journeys, we come to sometimes it's accepting the real our reality. It's hard to accept our reality sometimes of what we need to lay down and what we need to continue to carry. Um, one of the things on the Camino that struck that struck me was that as you walk, you know, there are these kilometer markers and they have the scallop shell and then the arrow, right? It's like, and then it counts down as you get closer um to Santiago. The the you know, you see, you see it counting down. But as these um, as these markers, as you go past them, people will let go of rocks or shells or something that they're carrying and they they place it on there and then continue walking. And for me, it was such a beautiful analogy of okay, you don't have to let the whole 16-pound pack go. You can, right? Like I came to the stark realization that I could not walk with this entire pack for one more second, and I had to let it go. I had to, it was gonna, it was gonna get in the way of of my experience of my journey. I wasn't gonna make it. But sometimes these small things that we're carrying, could could we keep carrying the little rock and the little shell? But sometimes it's just this representative, it's representative of something that is greater of I'm gonna set this down. I'm gonna set this down here. And it doesn't mean I'm gonna forget it, but it means I'm gonna set it here and then I'm gonna keep going with my journey. And sometimes the mental load that we set down is greater than the physical things that that we're carrying. And it takes courage to do that. It takes a lot of courage to to set even sometimes small things. And so I think we, you know, we we know when it's time, you know, as I walked there and I I saw people just setting small things down. I thought sometimes, why, why that space, right? Why finally after walking another 50 kilometers, did you decide to set it down there? Right. And so sometimes I just think there's moments where we know that it's time to just let this go. And it's also being brave enough to know I don't know what sometimes I don't know what it means if I set this down and keep going without it. Um definitely. But it's the right moment.

SPEAKER_00 35:08

Yes, I love that too. And I think about how I love to tell people you should never feel like you're starting over from the beginning. So when they lay their burdens down, they're not forgetting them, like you said, they're keeping them and using them for energy like fuel, using that burden for purpose to continue from where they left off. But they're also taking a part of it with them, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:44

Uh yes. Uh absolutely. I mean, cause and and that and that's one of the I mean, that's where, you know, we don't forget the things that have shaped us to come to where we are. And it's, you know, you made this point earlier too, where sometimes the thing that you're doing right now, the thing that you're going through right now, and the pressure and the pace and whatever it else is is happening, it's teaching you for what you're gonna need to do six months from now. And so I look back at myself even a year ago and think it was teaching me what I needed to do today.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

And I had, I didn't know that. I didn't, I didn't realize it at the time. And so I also think, and I I become so convinced of observing the moments that we're in. And sometimes they're really hard moments, they're really bad moments, and they're really hard. And they're it's you know, there's happy ones and there's sad ones, and there's grief-stricken ones, and there's moments we're filled with just uncertainty and all of the other things that go along with it and confusion. Uh, but having just, I guess it's the emotional intelligence or awareness around us to to always be observing that. And what what is this preparing me to do next? And what am I taking with me out of it to do next, right? Or what it what what is bad that I need to stop in this and this isn't gonna take up so much of my headspace or my mental real estate anymore. I need to focus on something else, right? Um, so whatever, whatever that is, whatever shape it takes, yeah, to me, I I just I feel like there's a lot of things that are preparing us if we and it comes back, it truly does. And that's why I'm just I'm so I I mean the what if mindset is inherently just who I it's it's who I am as a person. I think it's who we all are. And we just ask this question about what if, what if there is something else, or what if I can do this or do this, or whatever the case may be, and framing it that way to me is such a positive way of approaching life and problems and questions and leadership and all the rest of it.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

It really is. And I, for one, am very thankful you found it because I mean, that's what's so wonderful about meeting people and connecting with people on the podcast, is that is going to help me moving forward immensely. So I am truly thankful that you saw what your calling is. So I'll be sure and use that a lot. My listeners hear me talk a lot about the pause before the reaction.

Let It Suck Then Move

SPEAKER_00 38:50

And I'm wondering, do you think curiosity begins after the fear is gone? Or is curiosity actually what helps us move through the fear?

SPEAKER_01 39:02

Oh my gosh. I I think that the curiosity is what helps. I mean, I know it's helped me move through really dark times, times where I've been afraid of, I don't know what's coming next. I don't know what's next. Am I doing am I crazy? Am I crazy? Am I doing this all wrong? And having the curiosity to think about, and I've asked, I mean, I've asked myself, I've asked friends, I've asked Chat GPT, I've asked every I've asked everybody, right? Human and not. And it's like, what what am I missing? Right? What or is there something I should be thinking about that I'm not thinking of? What am I not seeing here? Right. And so even in those moments of what those are hard. It's hard to do it in those moments. It's really hard because we we have to give ourselves, I always say, give yourself the time to if something, I mean, this it sucks. So sit there and let it suck, right? Just let it suck. And I I I tell a story um about that first day on the Camino and my pack. And I had uh my first day was 22 kilometers, which was a lot. That was a lot for the first day. Okay, I think that was that was a lot. Um, and looking back, it probably would first day probably wouldn't go that far. But so Pam, don't go 22 kilometers on your first day of the Camino when you guys do it, okay? Um, but I had 22 kilometers and I I came to the mile marker. I had five kilometers left, and it was taking me a long time, right? I was moving really slow at that point because my knees were aching, my um, my ankles were aching, and it was just the weight of that pack, and it was the terrain, right? It's this is not like walking on a flat surface around, you know, like a track. So you have the in my mind, the terrain uh was just up and down and steep. And so I got to that five kilometer mark where I had left, and I set my pack down. There was just this dirt trail, kind of bended this corner, and there was a grassy patch, and I rounded it and I just set this pack down and sat down next to it, and I started crying. I just started crying, and I I sat there thinking, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know who I think I am that I came out here alone and can do this, but I can't keep doing this. It sucks. This sucks. And I can't have I can't go on. I don't think I'm gonna make it five kilometers. And I've told people there this was I mean, the only time in my life that I would tell you that, and maybe it was after walking, you know, nearly 20 kilometers that my brain thought I I was like, I could hear a voice so clear, like somebody talking to me, saying, Brandy, sit there and cry. Go ahead, sit there and cry. Let it suck, because it does. But you know what you're gonna do? You're gonna sit there and when you're done crying, you're gonna get up and you're not gonna walk five kilometers, you're gonna walk the next step. Then you're gonna walk the next step and you're gonna get to where you're going. But first, first get it out. Let it suck and sit there and cry. But then I want you to get up because that's what you came out here to prove that you could do is things that you didn't know you could do. You're gonna push yourself to where you didn't think you could go, and that's why you're here. So I did. I sat there and I let it suck. I was like, all right, let's go. And it was what it is. It is, it just it is, it is, and and I had to, I had to find a place to sleep. So I had to keep going. Um, so I that's a motivator. Yeah, I needed a bed and a shower. So I I was like, I whatever it takes for me to keep going. But it was just that moment of allowing ourselves sometimes to let it suck. And you know, not saying, Oh, this is all like, yeah, when you're in the middle of uh, you know, an awful moment, um, just look on the bright side and stay curious. No, sometimes you need to get have your moment, don't live in it, don't don't build your house there, but you're gonna walk through and then you're gonna find your strength. And that's where I believe to your point of the curiosity of what if I do that? What if I get up and I don't think about walking five kilometers? I think about walking to the end of I can see that bridge and I'm gonna walk there and then I'll stop. And that That curiosity of asking those questions is what f fueled me. And I make so many of these parallels when I came back. It was like, oh my gosh, this is life, you know? And I was out there living in these moments that to me, you know, and I tell people, you don't have to go walk the Camino. I I would absolutely cheer you on if it's something you want to do. But it can be small things in every single one of our days and lives where if we can just pause and stay curious in some way to get us through that fear and those dark moments, I believe it's what propels us.

unknown 44:43

Gosh.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Such an incredible journey and story that you can reference the rest of your life and share with others. I always tell people we all have stories, and when we share them, it's kind of like at the old days when you sit around a campfire sharing stories. It really helps others see themselves in that story. You know? And that's why I write.

Becoming, Balance, And Storytelling

SPEAKER_00 45:07

I've been writing a lot lately about becoming not becoming someone new, but becoming who we were always meant to be. Do you think those are different or are they really the same journey?

SPEAKER_01 45:25

You know, I I I I I think it's the same. I mean, when you say that, my instinct first is to say, I think it's the same journey. And and also there are some moments in our life where we're so convinced that our future looks like this, our path looks like this. But becoming who we are, who we're meant to be, sometimes means letting go of what that image was to us, right? Of what life should look like. This is what life should be, this is what it should look like, this is how it should go. And it's really uncomfortable to come to terms with the fact that no, in order for me to become the best version of me, in order for me to become what I'm supposed to do and live the path that I'm supposed to live, there's not room for that anymore. Or the things that are not feeding us the positive, the nurturing, right? Like there, we keep things around us that are not good for us. They're preventing us from becoming who we're supposed to be. But it's just hard to get to come to terms with I've gotta let that, I've gotta, in order to become here, you I I can't stay here.

SPEAKER_00 46:54

Yes, we talk a lot about the brain and how it loves patterns, good or bad. But in order to have a new pattern that serves you better, you have to get rid of some of the old patterns. And that's the challenge. That's the moment between the behavior. That's where you establish the new pattern, you know. It's all about balance. Absolutely. Absolutely elusive balance.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

I don't know that it ex you know, it exists in a way where, you know, I don't know. I think about being a kid, you know, on the teeter-totter, and it's like every once in a while you'd be on with somebody and you could kind of both float there. And it like, but that doesn't happen often, right? Like it's sometimes, sometimes you've got these moments in our lives where we feel like everything is and we're able to balance, but I don't know. To me, I feel like it's a constant, and you know, the if you look at my logo, I'll just say this it the the what if collective logo is a little bit of a nod to I I um I spend half my time near near the west coast of Florida or on the west coast of Florida, um, near the ocean. And so one of the things that I love so much is the sunset, and I never get tired of it. And I think a lot of people do, right? Like every time I go watch the sunset, and everybody's on vacation and people say, Don't you get old watching that? No, it never gets old to me. And one of the things for me, you know, as I was creating even the logo for what if um was this nod of the waves of it's ever changing, right? It's ebbing, flowing, it's in and out. And can we can we move with that and stop trying to force, like we can't force the waves to stop? And we don't want to do that, right? It wouldn't be the ocean if we if we did. And so having that that idea of of balance is to me is almost, it sounds great, but it's really in life, I think it's just that ebbing and flowing and constant movement that give us truly the balance because we're never stagnant then. We're never just staying in in that same space.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

Exactly. I couldn't agree more. There's a story I wrote about, it's called The Hidden Mountain. And it's all about life is the mountain, right? We're climbing, climbing, working so hard, and we're just shooting for the summit for the top. And then you get up there and you're like, oh, is this it? But then you look over to the right, and there's another mountain that you didn't see while you were climbing this mountain. It was hidden from sight. But when you get to the summit, then you're able to see that, oh, I still have more to climb. And it's all about evolving. We're never really done. No.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

That's what I love about this work, is it's never done, right? I'll never arrive at a place where I've done every I know I I've talked to every team, I've done every every single time I talk to a team, a leader, I go into an organization, I learn something else, or I'll see something else. Or if I have a conversation with you, right? Like some with you, Piyama, it's like, oh my gosh, I I'll never stop learning. I'll never reach it. Doesn't it there's no end to it of okay, I've reached the summit, I've reached the pinnacle, there's nothing to learn, nothing to nobody else to talk to, nothing else to see here. It never will happen. And that's why I for me, I I just love this work because it's just a constant evolution of learning and being open to learning and growing. And I tell people you said something so amazing, and I believe it, you know, because I've had people come up to me, as I'm sure you have, and you know, they say, Oh, this is that's easy for you, Brandy. You can get up in front of people and you talk and you share your story. And I didn't ever do anything like hike the Camino. I didn't ever do anything like whatever, right? Like whatever it is I might be sharing. And I I one of the things that I love to tell people, and you said it in another way, but every single one of us has a story to tell, and somebody out there, somebody out there is waiting for you to tell your story only the way that you tell it, not the way I tell it, the way you tell it. So go tell your story because not everybody, I'm not gonna be everybody's cup of tea. I can walk into a room and you know, somebody might I nope, I don't like her for whatever reason, right? But you walk in a room and that's oh my gosh, they they gravitate to what you're saying. And that's why there's space for everybody to share their stories. And so I encourage people, go share, go share your story, share what you're good at doing. Um, be available, be visible to people and get out there and share because somebody's waiting to hear what you have, somebody out there.

SPEAKER_00 51:59

It inspires, it gives them hope. I'm thinking for someone like you with the journey and the story you have. I have the perfect question, I think. If someone had met you during one of the hardest seasons of your life, whatever that is, what do you hope they would have seen in you that you couldn't yet see in yourself?

SPEAKER_01 52:18

Oh my gosh, it's such a great question. Um what I hope they would see, and and I think, I think, because I I had somebody tell me this. I I had told somebody I was going through um just recently, it's just for me, very recently, right? Like it hasn't always been like this. And I share a little bit of my story. Well, we can talk again, Pam. I'm I could sit here and talk to you all day. Um, and I want to talk to you again. But you know, I I I recently have gone through probably one of the hardest seasons of my life. And I had, I, I had confided in somebody that I I worked a lot professionally with. And so I had been up with their team and I had done all of these things and I had told them, I said, I, you know, I I'm gonna tell you this about me. And um, they looked at me and they said, Brandy, that that's part of who you are. Now looking back, despite that, despite like I would have never known that was happening for you, but you showed up and you were able to give this energy and receive energy and still come to us with the same heart and passion and power that you did a year ago, right? Or whatever it is, or that you will six months from now. And I I looked at him and I was like, thank you for telling me that. I mean, I wish, I hope that that's what people see in me in those darkest moments, is that I'm still able to show up. And the reason is is not because of anything special, but because I believe in my core of the work I'm doing. I believe in the what-if mindset. I believe it serves people and helps people and motivates people and can truly just change an entire trajectory of where you might be going, whether that's personally, professionally, I believe that in my core. And so no matter what else might have been going on, that's where I was such a compliment to me to hear that of gosh, I I hope I can show up and still have this voice, even in the midst of this really hard moment. And so for somebody to say that to me, it was really humbling to hear that. I was really humbled by it. Um, but I was also like, wow, I'm really happy that I was able to do because that's what I want to do, uh, is to keep showing up.

SPEAKER_00 54:57

That is beautiful. I always think about my own personal life and I try to live my life just as I'm advising others to do. And a lot of times I still struggle. There's been seasons where my own framework was difficult to follow because I'm just human and with a past and stuff, and it's uh, you know, like they say about the shoemaker, the shoemaker has the worst-looking shoes. But my family and my supporters, they all hold me accountable. They're like, uh, Pam, really, you need to listen to your own advice in this situation. I mean, do you find that um it's difficult for you to follow your own framework at times?

SPEAKER_01 55:45

Um I I've had that same internal conversation with myself so many, so many times. And I have told, I have shared with shared with um those around me and and shared um, you know, with with people I've worked with, especially recently in the past year, is that as I have, I feel like what makes the what if mindset so special to me is that it was lit, it was literally built as I was living it. Some of it was built as I was living it. And so putting certain things together and and consciously having to live in a really intentional way, because that's a lot of what it's about too, is it's intentionality. Am I living intentionally? Am I doing things intentionally and not just scattered of or reactionary things? Uh, or and am I showing up authentically? Yes. And that's where I would check myself all along the way of what is it that I'm doing and whether it was really personal and really messy, or whether it's in friendships or um decisions that I'm making. I I always pressure test myself against that because sometimes, like you said, I mean, we're human. And I like there are days I feel like it was like I'm in a fog. I can't even come on, I can't even get out of my bathrobe and stop eating ice cream on my couch and drinking a cab. I don't know, right? It's like I just want to like sit here. I can't do it. And we all have we all have those moments. And so to be able to just recognize that, but again, right? It's the voice inside of us that says, yeah, sit there for the day. Sit, sit there for the day in your bathrobe and you know, binge wash whatever you're gonna do and eat whatever and do it. But then you're gonna get up and you're gonna do this. And then am I doing it with intention? Is there intention behind it? Is there authenticity behind it? Is there am I adding value? And that's that's my gauge as well, is wherever I go to add value, whether I'm paid or not, right? So if I could be being paid to come into an organization, or I could be showing up to volunteer my time, or I could be showing up, you know, in my kids' school. I don't know. But am I coming in here adding value? Always I want the answer to be yes, because I don't want somebody to look at it like, oh, there's, you know, there's I mean, we all have people. It's like, you know, we there's always the cast of characters of life, right? There's people who show up and they don't they don't add much, right? Like they're just there. And so you're like, oh, there's that person again. Like this is gonna be um, right? But then there's people who always show up and it's like, no, I know something good's gonna come out of this, even if it's little, right? It doesn't have to be big and grandiose all the time. It can just even be a moment. Or did I stop and listen to somebody uh that needed a moment? Or did somebody stop and listen to me when I needed a moment? Right. So there's just all those things. And yeah, I mean, I try. I I I try even in the darkest of moments to show up like that. Um, and it's not always easy. It's not easy, it's not easy ever.

SPEAKER_00 59:10

No, it's not. And the cast of characters of life, I'm still gonna use that in something. But you know, I have to tell you that you are achieving all of those things because right when I met you, right when we first came online, the first thing I thought is, wow, she's so authentic. Very genuine. Very genuine. And I felt safe in that. I felt safe with you being present. And this has made a lovely time together. I appreciate that in you. So you're succeeding.

SPEAKER_01 59:42

Thank you. And but again, I mean, I told you right when we got on as well. Uh, your work, both of our work is so parallel and aligned. And I think it was it for me, it was very reciprocal, safe space. And, you know, there are times it's it's like anything, right? You get on, it's a more difficult conversation than others. And this has been amazing. And this has been such a just uh joyful and productive time. Uh, and I I really appreciate it. And I can't wait to see more of your work and uh keep connecting because it's just been it's been fantastic. I really appreciate you having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

Oh my

Where To Find Brandy And Next Steps

SPEAKER_00 1:00:26

goodness. I love, love, love. Like I said before, giving people a voice to express themselves. And speaking of, can you tell our listeners how we can find you and follow your work?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:37

Yes. So um follow me on well, LinkedIn. If you are on LinkedIn, I would love to connect with you. I have the What If Collective. There is a page, but there's also personally, connect with me, reach out personally. Uh, the website, um, what if collective.com. And what are Instagram? Uh, follow me on Instagram. But if you go to my website, there's links to all of that. So um just go to the whatif collective.com and you can find me there. You connect with me. I have a calendar link. You can book time. Uh, so it's all it's all right there. But I'd love to um love to connect with with everybody.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:15

It'd be fantastic. Awesome. And we will be sure to note every link of every platform in the show notes so you can click on your favorite. Thank you. So, Brandy, thank you. As I listened to today's conversation, I I kept coming back to one simple thought. Transformation doesn't always begin with certainty. Sometimes it begins with curiosity. Not because curiosity removes fear, but because it gives the courage to take one more step anyway. So if today's conversation helped you see yourself a little differently, don't feel like you have to figure out the rest of your life today. Maybe all you need to do is pause and ask one better question. What if? Because sometimes those two little words become the doorway to a life you never imagined. If you enjoyed today's episode, I'd love for you to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who needs to hear this conversation. And if you'd like to hear what stayed with me after Brandy and I stop recording, the moments that challenged me, the insights that lingered, and the reflections that didn't make it into today's conversation, join me every Wednesday for Behind the Mic. It's delivered exclusively through my newsletter. You will also get early access to each episode. So you can subscribe at newsletter.delaythebinge.com. Until next time, be curious, be courageous, and never stop becoming the person you were always meant to be. See y'all next week. Thanks again, Brandy, so much. Thanks, Pam. Hey, it's me, Pam. And before we go, just a quick reminder: everything we share here is meant to encourage, educate, and get you thinking. But it's not a substitute for professional mental health, medical, legal, financial, or any other licensed advice. I'm simply someone who's walking through life, learning right alongside you. And I'm grateful we get to learn together. Always seek the guidance of a qualified professional for your unique situation. Thanks for spending this time with us. Until next time, remember sometimes the biggest change begins with one small pause. I'll see you on the next episode of Delay the Binge.