Why You Can’t Say No (Even When You Want To) | The Mental Boardroom with Dana Skaggs

Most people don’t struggle with boundaries because they don’t know how to say no.

They struggle because in the moment…something else takes over.

In this episode of the Delay the Binge Podcast, Pam Dwyer sits down with psychotherapist and “Queen of Boundaries,” Dana Skaggs, to unpack what’s really happening beneath burnout, people-pleasing, and overgiving.

This isn’t about willpower.

It’s about understanding the internal patterns, often rooted in past experiences, that show up in real time and override your ability to choose differently.

And more importantly… how to interrupt them.

In this episode, we explore:

• why high performers burn out, and how boundaries help you play the long game
 • the biggest myths about boundaries (and why they’re not walls)
 • the “mental boardroom” and how to stay in the CEO seat
 • the yard and fence analogy for understanding what’s yours, and what isn’t
 • how trauma responses (fight, flight, freeze, fawn) show up in everyday decisions
 • what’s really happening during an amygdala hijack, and why logic isn’t enough
 • how we train people to treat us (without realizing it)
 • simple, practical ways to start setting boundaries, without blowing up your relationships
 • how to recognize safe vs. unsafe people in your life

The takeaway:

You don’t have to fix everything.

You just have to pause long enough to notice what’s happening…
 and choose what actually serves you.

That’s where the shift begins.

Connect with Dana Skaggs:

🌐 Website: https://danaskaggs.com

🧠 Discover Your Boundary Style:  Take Dana's free Boundary Quiz:
https://danaskaggs.com/quiz

🔥 Phoenix and Flame Podcast:
https://phoenixandflame.com

💼 Therapy Practice:
https://danaskaggstherapy.com

🔗 LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/danabskaggs-speaker

📘 Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/dana.b.skaggs

📸 Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/dana.b.skaggs/

▶️ YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/@queenofboundaries

Stay connected with Pam:

Inside the Pause (weekly insights + early access):
 https://newsletter.delaythebinge.com/

PJ Hamilton Short Stories (every Tuesday):
 https://newsletter.authorpjhamilton.com/

If this conversation resonated with you, share it with someone who might need it.

Because sometimes the shift starts with hearing something you didn’t have words for before.

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Why Boundaries Fail In The Moment

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Most people don't struggle with boundaries because they don't know how to say no. They struggle because in the moment something else takes over. And if you've ever said yes when you meant no and walked away wondering why you keep doing it, today's conversation is going to give you clarity. Welcome back to the Delay the Bench Podcast. I'm your host, Pam Dwyer, and today I am joined by someone I've really been looking forward to talking with because the way she approaches boundaries is just different. Dana Skaggs brings both the clinical side and the real life experience together in a way that actually makes sense. She's a psychotherapist with over 18 years of experience, a keynote speaker, and the host of Phoenix and Flame podcast, ranked in the top 5% globally. And she's known as, are y'all ready? The Queen of Boundaries. Dana, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Thank you. Thank you, Pam. I appreciate it. This is gonna be a good talk.

SPEAKER_04 1:10

Yes, and I'm gonna tell everybody right now it's not Dana, it's Dana.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

And either way is fine with me. People say both.

SPEAKER_04 1:21

Oh. All right. Well, before we jump into everything, I just want to say uh I love how you take something like boundaries, which can feel heavy and even intimidating at times, and you make it feel real, relatable, and honestly doable.

High Performers And The Burnout Trap

SPEAKER_04 1:43

I want to know about you personally. So what are you on fire for right now? What's going on?

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Oh my gosh. So right now, what I'm on fire for, because I'm a serial entrepreneur because I've got my private practice and then I did my podcasting. And then right now I'm focusing on trying to scale my business and reach more people with my message about boundaries, with my framework of the mental boardroom. And I'm trying to reach businesses. I'm trying to reach groups of people, I'm trying to reach corporations, associations, women's groups, colleges, you know, just trying to find them so that I can connect with them and I can support their groups and so they can function much better. I guess, in a way, and it's not solely this, but I have a special heart for high performers because I'm one of them. And high performers that don't know how to use boundaries are a lot like Icarus flying too close to the sun. They're gonna fly one time too many, too close, and everything's gonna melt away and they're gonna be crispy crunchy and they're gonna plum it down. And this is not uncommon. They burn out, they get overwhelmed, they don't know how to set healthy boundaries, and they might be a rock star for maybe six months, look like they're setting the world on fire and pressing everybody for six months, and then they plum it to the ground. And so, my heart is to try to reach these people so they can play the long game, Pam, so they can be there so they can do what they're so good at. I've had patients in my office that were so amazing, they were smart, they were creative, they were passionate, and they ended up on FMLA seeing me as a therapist because they're having panic attacks every morning before work.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Right? They're having nausea, they're having uh migraine headaches, they're going to the emergency rooms, they're going to their doctor's office, you know, eating uh all kinds of the antacids and all kinds of things. This does not have to be the case. If you know how to practice healthy boundaries, you can do it and you can play the long game and keep doing the thing that you love versus being a hot shot for six months and then peace out. Right? It must be real. That's what happens.

SPEAKER_04 4:15

I so relate to all of that because that's what my uh tendency is, setting boundaries. And it's the way I grew up in a an abusive, very abusive childhood. So boundaries were tough for me as a young adult. Probably about eight years of therapy. And I owe my life to that woman. And so, first of all, thank you. Thank you for what you do for those of us that struggle. But she did explain to me that these tendencies, you know, don't just disappear. It's always going to be something you have to cope with. Once I learned how to focus just with how to cope, you know, that's when I started turning things around. But

The Biggest Myths About Boundaries

SPEAKER_04 4:57

when some people hear the word boundaries, what do you think what do you think they get wrong most often?

SPEAKER_00 5:03

What I think they get wrong most often, Pam, is there's a myth that boundaries mean someone is running around screaming no at everybody.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

And that is not the case. People also think that boundaries mean they're throwing up these cinder block walls against everybody in their life, that they're they're not gonna. I mean, I've had um business leaders that were under the misconception that boundaries meant that if I came in and and spoke to their team about boundaries, then their team would be saying, no, I'm not gonna do this. No, I'm not gonna do that. No, no, no, I'm not gonna. And that is not how it works at all. That is one of the huge myths of boundaries, is that it's it's center block walls and running around screaming no at everybody. And that is simply not the case.

SPEAKER_04 5:57

Yeah. I I can see where they would think that. I thought that.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

And that's one of my passions is trying to get out there and and show people that's not how it works. That's not what it means.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

Um so it's so interesting because what I see a lot is that it's not just one thing pulling at people, it's work, expectations, responsibilities all at once, and you know, checking off all the boxes. And it doesn't stay in one place. It follows them wherever they go. It's just not only work, career, it's home, personal life. And that's where I see people start to feel uh burnt out, not necessarily because they're doing too much, but because they're carrying things that may not even be theirs to carry. So

The Mental Boardroom Visual Explained

SPEAKER_04 6:46

I want to go a little deeper into something you teach, the mental boardroom strategy. Because when I was listening to you talk about that, I was in I was just amazed. I think it's wonderful. I think our listeners could really benefit from it.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Oh man, I I love this. I I developed it just organically throughout the years as I was teaching my patients how boundaries work. And because you had a point earlier when you were introducing the podcast, is that most of us know that we need to have better boundaries. We know that. Most of us know that we need to have a limit that we should tell ourselves no, or we should tell someone else no, so that we can do things that really matter, but we don't. And that's therein lies the rub. And that's why I developed this concept of a mental boardroom. It's sort of my interpretation of internal family systems. So the reason why I like to use a boardroom is because it's very clear where there's a position of authority. We all know in a board meeting where the CEO is sitting, right? We all know it's at the head of the table. And so when you pull this visual to your mind, you can see this long, shiny, expensive table, and then the CEO's at the at the head, and then there's chairs down the side. The reason why I developed this idea was to help people understand that they have parts of themselves, and I can get into I have a method called lead that I can get into here in just a minute to help them kind of know what to do. But they have parts of themselves that are in that mental boardroom. For example, they might have a part that is a younger part of themselves, that's something they went through when they were younger. You mentioned an abusive childhood. I went through similar things. I can share that in a few moments if you would like. I would love to. One of the reasons why I ended up being so passionate about boundaries. I have a part of me that is uh codependent that is very super focused on and it's on other people's emotions, the the body language, the facial expression, the movement of the eyebrow. I mean, I'm tracking, I'm I'm tracking it all, right? Which is one reason, you know, great. I that's one reason why I'm super good at my job, because I'm seeing everything. I may not say anything about it, but I'm but I'm tracking it all. And so even though that started out from a dysfunctional need, I, because I'm the CEO, I have a part of myself in that mental boardroom that's like, for example, if my if my husband comes stomping into the into the living room and then stomping into the kitchen and slamming stuff around, my that that younger part of me that's in my boardroom, the first thought that that part has is, what did I do? What did I do? Did I do something wrong? And then that part of me starts ticking down all the things uh that I was supposed to do. Did I forget something? Did I did I say something wrong? That part of because that's what that younger part of me experienced, that was the trauma.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

And so that part of me is in the boardroom and I can feel it in my body. My body gets tense, my neck muscles get tense, my heart rate starts going a little faster than normal. And even though I'm sitting there watching him and he hasn't said anything, he hasn't said anything's, you know, my fault or anything like that, that part of me that's codependent automatically thinks, it's about me, I did something wrong, I have to fix it. I have to figure out what's wrong, I have to make him calm down because I'm they because the anger upsets that part of me because of things that I went through when I was younger. But with the mental boardroom, if you know how to do it, you can feel that part of you, but you can stay in the CEO chair and not let it take over and still be able to behave in a way that is with healthy boundaries and not get sucked into old things that triggered us from the past.

SPEAKER_04 11:01

What a visual, and it really could play well with with our pause, you know, for delay the binge, the powerful, purposeful pause gives you a moment to clarify do I really need to do this thing? And it's the space, you know, where you allow yourself to reassess. And and so I love it so much. I've I've been really looking into the neuroscience of all of it too, but which you probably know all about.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

It's amazing. It's absolutely amazing, yes.

SPEAKER_04 11:31

Yes. When someone is in that moment and all those voices are showing up, telling you or the child shows up, how do they how do they begin to recognize which one is actually theirs? I mean, do people feel that boundary being crossed in their and in their body, like you said, you get all tense before they even recognize it mentally? Do you think they're not catching on?

SPEAKER_00 11:57

Yes,

The Yard And Fence Boundary Model

SPEAKER_00 11:58

I think that's one of the first places to start is is paying attention to your body. But if we back up for just a moment, when I train people about boundaries, I start out with uh a yard analogy. If we could kind of just take a pause and kind of jump jump a track over there, because that's going to wrap back around and help people to be able to do the mental boardroom.

SPEAKER_04 12:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

So yes. If you're like if you think about a typical suburban neighborhood and you have uh houses and you have yards, and imagine fences between the yards. In your yard are your thoughts, your feelings, and your actions. Those are the things that you have agency over. Those are the things that you get to change, those are the things that you take responsibility for. Okay? Then there is a property line. And on the other side of that property line is your neighbor's thoughts, your neighbor's feelings, and what your neighbor chooses to do. Now, although we, yes, we can get impacted by our neighbors, and I'll give an example of that in just a moment, we are not responsible for what our neighbor is thinking, feeling, or what our neighbor chooses to do. What most of us end up doing is we get this idea reversed. Instead of finding agency in our own thoughts, feelings, and actions, we are uber focused, like I was growing up because of my trauma. We are uber focused on the neighbor, which is anyone you're in a relationship with. Yeah. We are so focused and we blame ourselves. If our neighbor is upset, it's our fault. If our neighbor is mad, we have to calm them down. We feel responsible. Whatever's going on in our neighbor's yard, we feel like that's our that's that's all my fault. And I have all this in like the first four episodes of my podcast before I started interviewing people.

unknown 14:02

Gosh.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

But so if you start with that idea and then you go back to standing in the kitchen, you know, the with the example that I gave, my husband's stomping in, the first thing is if I'm thinking it, it's mine, I have a right to it. If I'm feeling it, it's mine, I have a right to it. Right? Right. Also, if my husband, whatever he's thinking, whatever he's feeling, is not in my yard. I did not cause it because technically his feelings are in his brain. Okay. Right. Which unless I have access to his brain, I can't control his feelings or what he's thinking. Yes. So it starts with that. It starts with the knowledge of yes, I'm witnessing my husband stomp into the room. I do not know what he's thinking, I do not know what he's feeling. All I can do is watch and witness and observe his behavioral actions, which seem to indicate he's mad. But that is all in his yard. Yes. My job is to pay attention to what's going on within myself. We have to separate those out right from the jump, or we're gonna get overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_04 15:13

Well, yeah, and growing up in a traumatic environment, it's survival, right? Control means survival. So we make a beeline for the worst person in the room. Because we want to take over that situation to keep everyone safe. That that was my tendency. But if I had the visual of the fence, you know, that might have helped spare I I wouldn't have spent any of my energy on someone else's anger. I would have kept that energy for myself and what I needed to do, which at the time was survive.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

That I have a similar story, I understand.

SPEAKER_04 15:50

Well, let's hear your story. It's all

Trauma Roots Behind Boundary Struggles

SPEAKER_04 15:52

about you today. So I would love to hear your story.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

You were joking earlier about it's odd being a podcast guest. It's odd for me talking about myself because I'm almost I'm always the one saying, let's talk about you with my with my clients and my patients. Um I I was raised in a home with there was a lot of great stuff, okay, in in just about anybody's situation. There's nobody that's all good or all bad. And I had a lot of great things to be thankful for. Also, my mother had uh a few pretty significant psychiatric diagnoses. Um like she was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and no one else diagnosed her with this, but I did, was borderline personality disorder. Because I've been in this business long enough and I combed through the DSM. And let me tell you something, from interacting with my mother as long as I did, she had borderline personality disorder. And for anyone in the field knows that lots of those personality disorders, they don't, they get overlooked because you have to really be around somebody for a long period of time to understand the dynamics and the manipulations that are going on to see the personality disorder. So when you have someone who has both bipolar and borderline, that's a very toxic cocktail. Yeah. And it involves a lot of narcissism, uh a lot of uh attention-seeking behavior, um, a lot of uh emotional outbursts, you're a lot of unpredictability, a lot of very a lot of manipulation. Um one psychologist told me she was a master manipulator. And so it was the whole family, in essence, was kind of wrapped around her. Yeah what her what her mood was, what she wanted, what she did, if she was upset. The whole entire family was all enmeshed around her. Now, if she was having one of her good spells, which could be for weeks, be great, right? But in in some ways that was almost worse because then, and this happened to me for decades with her, then you want to think, oh wait, maybe I was just imagining that other stuff. And then you let your guard down. Because you think, oh, it's not, I was just she was just having a bad day. That's not all that stuff's gonna happen, you know, I was just exaggerating, that stuff's not gonna happen again until it does. Yeah. And so that lurching back and forth and letting your guard down and then being s smacked again, and you know, is just that's I didn't have boundaries growing up. I didn't understand that I wasn't allowed them. And later on, when I was given, ironically by her sister, was given the seminal book on boundaries written by Dr.s Henry Cloud and John Townsend, two psychologists. Man, Pam, it was like that book was like magic. I was I was pouring through those pages thinking, what? Oh my god, what this is possible? It was like, it was like the clouds just parted and the sun shone down, and I thought, this is what magic is this? And so, and then I developed, I started understanding and started practicing it myself. And then in my private practice, I was learning more and more about and I would see it more and more. And I didn't ask to be called the queen of boundaries. That wasn't my idea. It was kind of it was sort of it was a joke. People would just, they would say, Oh, here's the queen of boundaries. Oh, data, she's the queen of boundaries. And they just said it so much that I'm like, well, all right then, I'll just own it. Because, you know, because I started seeing these things in other people, and I wanted to help them not to have to go through what I experienced.

SPEAKER_04 20:01

Yes. Yes. And I don't want to move off of this too soon, so I just want to stay here for just a second. Can you describe what it felt like at that time? Because you have uh you have fear, but then it there's a there's a pain. I mean, is that what you felt at the time when it would when she would again just turn on you when you got used to her being nice?

SPEAKER_00 20:25

Mm-hmm. There was confusion, there was sadness, there was anger, rage, pain. Um, and then I my system started detaching, emotionally detaching, and then I started feeling like I was kind of a bad person because and I remember this moment, and it might sound strange, and I don't really care. But there was a time in my in we were in in the a kitchen and in the a house that we were renting, and she was in one of her moods, and apparently I had done something or said something, because Lord knows I wasn't perfect, and I had done something or said something that made her angry. And she was slamming frozen containers of beef into the freezer and screaming at me, and she would like to connect cuss words together, like shit ass. Okay, like if like if you like if you called somebody two cuss words together, it would have more zing, right? So I was a shit ass. And and she was just she had the I still remember sitting there on the couch watching her across from me, and she had the the the freezer which was on the top. It was like an old school freezer and the freezer door, she'd flung it open and she was throwing these very hard, heavy pieces of beef, like hamburger, like in baggies or something, just whipping them in. the freezer just yelling at me and calling me shit ass. And as that was happening, it was almost like this if the shape of it was coming around me. And it felt like if you took um you know like a flute that you put champagne in. Yes. Okay, tip it upside down. Okay. And it was like that shape was coming around me.

unknown 22:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

And just I could almost audibly feel it click right in front. And at that moment, and I'll never forget this, at that moment I was absolutely detached from her. I could see her standing there still in the kitchen. I could hear what she was saying, but all of my emotions were locked away. Yes. At that moment, something inside of me had clicked me in and protected me from all of the abuse that went along with all the words and so that I could hear the word shit ass, but all of the connotation, all of the anger that was attached to it, it's like it hit the glass and fell to the floor. Yeah. Didn didn't reach me. And so then in answer to your question, then I start moving forward in life feeling almost kind of numb and detached. Yes. I had to emotionally detach to protect myself. And there was a part of me that I was not doing that. I I didn't do that consciously it just kind of happened. But I remember the moment that it happened and that clicking in front of me that came all the way around my body and just clicked. And at that moment I was she did not have access to me anymore from then on.

SPEAKER_04 23:42

Yeah that was a a defensive uh pattern that your brain created and and what I tell a lot of people is those patterns um is what wreaks havoc in your adult life because I did the same thing Dana I did I I just I was kind to people very c even compassionate but I wouldn't really let them in you know I wasn't really you know letting them love me or me love them. It was just a defense mechanism. So but that's a cool cool visual of the glass just shutting like a door.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

And it just snicked right right closed.

SPEAKER_04 24:27

Well I'm also thinking about you know how much I hated confrontation too. I just avoided it like the plague. I didn't I wanted to feel accepted and uh like I belonged or loved. I just craved it because I didn't have it growing up. And I saw other people getting it. So I knew I could see them being so happy and I wanted to be like them but I just didn't I felt at the time that I didn't have anyone that could love me like that. I would avoid conflict just trying to get them to like me. What

Amygdala Hijack And The Power Pause

SPEAKER_04 25:03

you've described it feels aligned with the pause because when that glass went around it's just the brain protecting itself yes?

SPEAKER_00 25:11

Yes. It was a subconscious part of my mind that said no more.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

Yeah it it's protecting you.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

That was a lower brain prop, probably right the lower brain I have been doing my homework amygdala and hippocampus that's a great part of our I was trying to remember that word. I mean it's that part of our brain is super fast and super strong because you have you have the neocortex which is the the frontal lobe yes that's where most of our reasoning and our logic resides. And that's one of the things that some of my patients and clients get confused about is they're like it doesn't make any logical sense that I'm having these feelings or that I'm having this response. I don't know why I feel this way I don't know why I'm having this emotional reaction because it doesn't make any logical sense. I'm like no but but the part of the brain where that resides where those feelings reside doesn't speak logic. Right. Logic is not a language spoken in the amygdala but the amygdala is super strong and super fast. And I I've got an example if you want to hear it. I would love to hear it yes okay because the the parts in our in our boardroom the vast majority of them are emotion based which means we have to interact with them in a way that is other than logic. You just can't explain to a part of well you know she's your mother she didn't intend that it was that part it doesn't you might as well be going blah blah blah blah blah because it doesn't hear logic. It doesn't understand that. And so it's good to know what's going on. So if you would imagine walking on a hike let's say you're in the woods and you're walking down a path with some dirt and some sticks and pebbles and you're kind of walking along enjoying the day feeling the sun on your face and as you're walking along smelling the smells of the forest in your peripheral vision you happen to see this black serpentine shape down near your feet what do you think your body is going to do in like a split second yes your body's gonna tense up and you are going to bolt you're gonna bolt like five or six feet away before you even have a chance to think. Right. Now what happens in that moment and I'm not sure is this just audio or is it audio and visual?

SPEAKER_04 27:47

It's audio visual.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Okay. So if you for those people that are audio if you imagine put your thumb into your palm and fold your other fingers over the top of your thumb you created the shape of somewhat like a brain okay now what happens in that moment when you when your peripheral vision has seen this black serpentine shape and your body is five feet, six feet across that path what happens if you imagine all your fingers pop up that means that your neocortex where it has your reasoning and your logic has popped offline it is not responding which means that thumb in there that is pressed against your palm that is where your emotional brain resides. That's where the amygdala is in your brain like if you were to stick a pen in your eye and in your ear and push it in where it would meet that's where the amygdala resides. Oh that's when we pop offline you the amygdala is totally in charge now what happens is you get you your your body has been moved six feet across that path your heart is pounding you're sweating then as your breathing begins to slow down and you take the pause right you pause and your breathing slows down slowly your neocortex comes back online. Yes the fingers come back down wrap back around the thumb your neocortex comes back online which means now you have access to your logic and reasoning which you didn't a moment ago now you slowly turn your head to the side and glance over there where that black serpentine shape was and you notice oh my goodness it's just a stick there's no reason to be upset there's no reason to jump six feet across this path and have my heart pounding out of my throat but do you see what happened in that moment do you see what is stronger?

SPEAKER_04 29:52

That's what we teach it in Delay the Binge is how to bring that frontal cortex back online. There are things you can do to prevent doing the things that will ultimately hurt you. Yep and it's short term right the the lower brain whatever solutions it's giving you is usually short term.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

Well it's a trauma response you think we typically think of fight or flight. Yes we get trut we get thrust into fight or flight when our body senses something that is s feels like danger then we get thrust and we we think about fight or flight, but there's also freeze and fawn. So fight or flight is you know running or fighting and think about the animal kingdom they're either going to have to fight it out to to stay alive or they're gonna hightail it and run away from the bear or the you know the cougar or whatever it is you're gonna get out of there or you're gonna fight. And so you have those two responses and interestingly enough before I go into fawn and freeze when we when our system decides that we're gonna fight lots of times you'll notice your hands will will start clenching and your jaw will start clenching because when people fight think about and again with toddlers or with Animal Kingdom you bite. When you're trying to fight you're you're grabbing with your your your fingers you're biting and so the parts of your body that get that that adrenaline that energy are your your hands and you'll notice this with with clients and with patients whenever they're describing a trauma and their body wanted to fight they'll start you'll see the the temporal mandibular joint that muscle there in the jaw and that that crook of the jaw will start to you'll see it tense up and constrict in their jaw because they're wanting they're wanting to bite and it but conversely if if the body wants to run you'll notice sometimes that the leg muscles will start twitching particularly in the thighs they'll you'll feel the twitchy feelings in your thighs and because your body has dumped the adrenaline down there so that you can run.

SPEAKER_04 32:08

And so those are things that you feel in your body and then there's the body an incredible machine oh my god it blows my mind because if you let it it can help you have a strong healthy life but if you listen to it.

Where To Start When You Feel Lost

SPEAKER_04 32:23

Yes well what if someone listening right now always think of my listeners because what if they're saying I don't even know what my boundaries are anymore? So where do they begin?

SPEAKER_00 32:34

How do they start okay well two things one always start with the yard concept your thought if if it's your thought if it's your feeling if it's your action that belongs to you that means you get to change that that means you own that okay so even if your neighbor does not agree with you let's say you have an opinion about something if your neighbor and I can use an example. Let's say uh people are having a a discussion about politics okay that that brings up some interesting you know conflict within people so you could be expressing your opinion respectfully because that's on you to do it's you're expressing your opinion that's your action you're responsible for that so you're responsible for doing it in a respectful way screaming and hollering at somebody is your action and that's your responsibility to that's not okay to do. But also if you're if you're expressing your opinion and your neighbor doesn't like it okay I know that the the let them theory right that's that's a boundary statement. Yes. Okay, let them they don't like your opinion okay and they don't have to they have a right to their own opinion so when you're starting out trying to figure out how the boundaries work is if it's your thought, if it's your feeling if it's your action that's your agency. That's what you get to own and change and also what you need to take responsibility for. Don't be blaming somebody else for something you are doing. That's your action. And likewise don't allow someone else to blame you for something they are feeling for something they are doing because that's in their yard a great example of this and we say this all the time but I have to bring it up she made me mad she made me mad. We say that all the time and I just let it most of the time I just let it go. But she started it she started it and she might have but whatever she started she started but then whatever you did you own it's kind of irrelevant who started it because you chose to engage when if if if we engage that's what we get to take responsibility for so if someone else started something let's say someone said something that we didn't like they brought up some opinion or whatever if you right from the beginning you're looking at it from a boundary standpoint you're like okay I don't like that opinion I they were rude they had a nasty sarcastic tone they were disrespectful right yeah okay they were all of that but that's on them. That has nothing to do with me right even if they're talking to me even if they're talking about me it has nothing to do with me. So it's it's beginning to try to understand these concepts of what belongs to me, what can I own, what do I what can I change and what does not because when we understand it it doesn't matter if the other person understands it or not as long as we understand it. So if someone's trying to accuse us they're all angry well you did this and that and I'm feeling this kind of way or someone's holding a grudge. Yeah. If we have apologized for something that we did and we owned it and I'm a firm believer in observing our behavior not judging it we don't need to what I call jump in the shame shower. That's not going to do any good you know let's I like that let's just observe our behavior don't judge it. That way if we just observe it and look at it from a point of curiosity then we can say well it's curious that I did this or I said this I that wonder why, right? Yes odd. And then it's like well I I probably shouldn't have done that. That was pretty hateful. And it's like yeah it was okay I'm not judging it. I'm just observing yeah it was hateful. So then I'm gonna pick that up out of my yard I'm gonna walk across my lawn I'm gonna lean up against the fence and I'm gonna say to my neighbor hey neighbor I said some things to you yesterday that were pretty terrible. I was in a very bad mood and I was obnoxious. I I yelled at you and I called you names and I'm so sorry. I should not have done that but I did because I'm human and I made mistakes but I'm owning that and I'm apologizing for it. Here's the thing once you've done that and the fence line is pressing into your abdomen there's no more that you can do how they receive or if they receive your apology is in their yard. If they decide to accept your apology or if they decide to hold a grudge for 15 years that's in their yard you cannot control those things.

SPEAKER_04 37:37

Exactly and I you know you know burnout is everywhere it's the it's the big topic now and a lot of people think that it's about it's it's about doing too much right but it's really more about carrying things that were never theirs to begin with. So if they keep it in their yard you know and and if they need to speak to the neighbor just like you said just keep it over there right is that what you're you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Yes and it's both they are carrying too much because they're carrying things that don't belong to them. They are carrying too much but the reason is they're carrying half like if you imagine going out into your yard and you have to keep up with it. You gotta mow it you got to rake it you got to keep up with your flowers you got to weed it you've got to put mulch out there. You got to keep up with stuff right you got to paint your fence all kinds of stuff shit you got to do out there.

Workplace Overload And Trained Expectations

SPEAKER_00 38:33

Now let's say you're out there taking care of all the things in your yard that you have to keep up with and also you're over there mowing your neighbor's yard every week you're over there trying to trim your neighbor's bushes every week you're over there washing your neighbor's car you're over there painting your neighbor's shutters and keeping up with everything in your yard how is that going to work out it is so true and in the corporate world or really any workplace do you notice and and this is a good question for you do you notice that the humanness of us if there is a person that says they're going to do everything and no matter what you throw at them they take it onto their plate because they don't want to say no right and so they just keep taking it and taking it I am that person and you know I've always worked my job just like it was my company that's the type of worker that's my work ethic I take it I take it on and so it will burn it does burn you out.

SPEAKER_04 39:34

I have burnt out doing that. But why doesn't the other person realize to them say to themselves wow Pam's going to take whatever I throw at her uh I better ease off a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

I think that's a bit much well they probably have more on their plates they're trying to dump stuff off. And secondly we train people what to expect from us. So in essence in the example that you're giving you have trained this coworker that they if they've got more on their plate than they can handle or they really want to leave early and go, you know, grab a beer with their buds down at the local bar, then they're gonna dump that shit on you and not care.

SPEAKER_04 40:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:18

And so if you if you keep accepting it then you're training them that they can do it. Because have you ever noticed that the bully in the playground right doesn't bully everyone equally correct have you ever noticed that I do I have noticed that yes the bully identifies certain other people to bully zeroes in on those ones and those are the ones that get bullied the bully does not bully everyone equally in the whole class. So I consider it good news that we train people how to treat us. That means initially we might not like that because we want to blame the other person. We want to say they're mean they're hateful they're not very thoughtful you know putting all that stuff on me and that and that's not I mean that's true. That's not untrue but we can't do anything about that. But the point is there's a pattern if someone keeps if we've been around somebody for a while this is not somebody you met last week right if you've if you've known them for a while and they keep dumping this stuff on you then that means you've trained them that they can I just oh that just love that so much because a lot of people you know they feel like they're just holding on to everything because they're trying not to drop it they're trying not to fall apart they're trying to be the best that they can be well then they better have boundaries because here's the thing you got to play this out people get to the middle of the book and they stop. If you play these scenarios out these individuals are going to end up in the ER they're gonna end up in in on FMLA they're gonna be the quiet quitters everybody's gonna say say some Mary say I'm this fictitious Mary allows this to happen and she's trying to be you know Sally sunshine to everybody she's trying to do everything everybody wants her to do she wants to be everybody's best friend or she can't say no to anybody everybody's got to like her right so she's not saying she's not saying no to anybody she's taking everything on everybody thinks Mary's the bee's knees right until they come into work Monday and Mary's desk is empty all of her all her pictures are gone all of her stuff is gone and everyone starts talking to one another in the hallway where's Mary have you seen Mary I don't know have you seen Mary somebody said she quit what do you mean she quit she was just here Friday yeah she's gone all of her stuff is gone they're called quiet quitters they don't say anything about it to anybody they don't tell their boss about it they don't tell their coworkers about it but they take it all up to their eyeballs until they feel like they're drowning and they just peace out the problem Pam with the quiet quitters is that they're gonna go to the next job and they're gonna start it all over again because they don't know how to practice healthy boundaries and so they're gonna go and they think they've escaped it. No they haven't because it's inside it kind of reminds me this is kind of a funny aside did you ever see the movie? I think it was uh Friday the 13th with um it was a scene I've seen all the versions okay there was a scene where there's a babysitter sitting inside a house and she gets this crazy call from the scary person. And then she this was back in the day with when she had like telephones not cell phones. Yes and and then she calls the police and she says oh my gosh I just got this crazy call would you please please trace it trace it and tell me where it's coming from because she's babysitting a child right so then the police call her back and they say get out the caller is coming from inside the house Oh my God. Yeah. Remember that. Remember that. That still gives me goosebumps. The hairs stand up on your arms, right? You're like, oh crap. For the quiet quitters, I'm saying the collar is coming from inside the house. The issue is inside of them. It's their lack of understanding of how to go and out into the world and have your wonderful, amazing, creative, intelligent ability, but you have to set boundaries because there are actually, Pam, two things happen. One, you have people that for different reasons, they will take advantage of you. They're going to take advantage of you. And let's just say it, they're lazy. I'm just going to say it. I'm going to say the word. They're lazy. They don't want to do the work, but they want to get credit for it. And they want you to do it. So they can take out a scoop it off your desk the next day and act like they did it when they didn't do it. Oh, yeah. Those people are out there. So that's that's one thing. All right. So it's just like you you've got to be able to set these boundaries because that's one individual that's going to happen to you. But here's the other thing: people that are high performers, they attract projects and coworkers like moths to light. Okay. When you are good at what you do, and I've experienced this, you have probably experienced this. When you are a rock star at work, when you are super at what you do, you're smart, you're intelligent, you're creative, you're passionate. People are drawn to you. They want you to be on their project. They want you to be the one taking over their project because they realize all the wonderfulness you're going to bring to their project. So these people are coming to you. They see what you're doing on the projects that you're currently working on. They see what your track record is. They're like, oh my gosh, we need her on our project. So they come, they say, hey, please join our team. We need you. The thing of it is, you can be like, that project sounds amazing, and I want to do that so bad. I can taste it. But if you don't know how to say, you know what? I love what you're doing. Please contact me in about four weeks. I have some other projects that I'm working on right now that I'm already committed to, and I want to give them my best. And I don't have more time right now. But you know what? Things are going to change for me in about four weeks. I'm going to finish one of these projects and it's going to be amazing. And then I'm going to have more space for you. So connect with me. If you still need me in four weeks, look me up. And I'm guarantee you, if you're a high performer and you're as good as you think you are, they'll wait.

unknown 46:51

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

Because they would rather wait another week or two for you than get some half asser on, and we know, okay, the half-asser, get the half asser on on the the and all they're gonna do is make that project adequate. Is there a worse word to attach to a project than adequate or mediocre? Mediocre, right? So the thing of it is if you are a high performer, you you have to you have to gauge yourself and protect yourself against those two types, against the one who's gonna take advantage of you, and also the people that want you on their teams and you want to do it, but if you're I that's why I'm trying to help people play the long game. If you want to stay at that company or you say it's your own company or you work for another company, if you love it there and you want to stay there for a long time, I'm teaching people how to play the long game. Yes. Not be the hot shot for four months and then be the quiet quitter. That's not gonna help anybody. That actually costs intermediate company.

SPEAKER_04 48:00

That's why shame and guilt is is running rampant.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 48:07

Oh, I know. I'm so I I love this conversation. Um I guess it so what you're saying is you need to listen to yourself, you know, instead of others. But I saw this video the other day and and what you were saying made me think of it. And and the the lady on the video said, if you're a high achiever, or you know, you 120% is what you always give, then it's important that you surround yourself with people that love you and know this of you and can hold you accountable to remind you, I know your tendency, Pam, is to give 120%, so you don't need to take on this additional project. It's just my opinion. But I don't know, what do you think about that? Hacker surrounding yourself with people that know you well enough and care about you, you know, to help you with that.

SPEAKER_00 49:00

I think that is a wonderful idea and it's a good thing to do. Also, um how do I want to put this? We do need to have our posse, right? We need to have our posse that's gonna speak truth to us. Yes. And and if you have if you have a strong personality, then a lot of people aren't gonna speak truth to you.

unknown 49:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

And I have a strong personality, so I know this, right? Because it you, you know, but you need your posse. People that are gonna say, dude, you know, you need to dial it back because you might not be recognizing it, and that they can see the signs in you. So on the one hand, having your posse is absolutely gold. Gold, gold, right? And also, we need to realize that it's not their responsibility to continuously rein us in. It's our job. Right.

SPEAKER_04 49:59

Then this codependency, right? Then you rely on them to keep you in.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

And it's not their job. It's not their job. It's a lot of people. It's lovely to have them, yes. I mean, and and we when you have a posse, sometimes you're holding someone else accountable, sometimes they're holding you accountable. It's like quid pro quo, and and you love that about the group and you need the group. And also, at the end of the day, we are responsible for for our own choices and our own actions. And to recognize that in ourselves, in our own life.

SPEAKER_04 50:35

And how how do you think how do you suggest people start recognizing who is actually, you know, their posse, who's safe in their life, you know? Mm-hmm. This is a great question, bam.

Vetting Safe People In Your Life

SPEAKER_04 50:49

I love it. Because it involves boundaries, you know? That's where the boundaries come in. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 50:54

Well, it's part of part of part of boundaries is vetting people, vetting for safe people. And actually, uh Henry Drs Henry Clatter and John Townsend wrote a book called Safe People as an extension of their boundaries book. Because we're responsible for vetting people, are they safe in my life? I'm gonna I'm gonna answer that question, but I'm also gonna give you an analogy. So imagine a cell in your body and a cellular membrane, generally, most cellular membranes have two jobs. One job is to push toxins out of the cell, like think of a semi-permeable membrane, right, to push toxins out of the cell, and then also to pull nutrients into the cell twofold. We, if you think of boundaries in that way, we are responsible for pushing toxins out and for pulling nutrients in. So the safe people, that's making sure that you don't have someone toxic in your life. And how do you tell someone like that? Let me give you some examples. If you try to be honest with someone and they criticize you, that's not a good sign. If you try to tell them about what's going on in your life, and after about 30 seconds, they have turned the whole conversation around about making it about them. Yes. That is not a good sign. And I actually did a I noticed this so much, I did an impromptu casual experiment where I would engage random people that I knew in conversations. I would bring up something that had happened to me, and I would say, Oh my gosh, I'm so upset about this, and I want to talk to you about it. And then I would start talking. And I would see how long it would take them until they're talking about themselves. A test. How long do you think it was?

SPEAKER_04 52:59

Probably seconds.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

About about one to two minutes, Max.

SPEAKER_04 53:04

Oh, okay. Now it's one thing to talk to people where it turns quickly.

SPEAKER_00 53:08

Quickly. Because those are those are people that have narcissistic tendencies. Okay, and we're I'm not talking about diagnostic. Yeah. But narcissism just basically means self-focused. Yeah. Okay. We're thinking about ourselves. And so that's a key thing when you're talking to people. Or do you have someone in your life who you can go to with your experience of that day? Let's say something happened to you at work and you really need to process it. You're not really sure what you think about it. You're kind of unclear. You want some wise counsel from someone. Are they listening to you? Are the comments that they're making back to you, do they indicate that they actually listened to what you said? Or are they making comments that indicated they really weren't listening? They were just waiting for your lips to stop flapping. Right? So they could start talking. And usually it's about themselves.

SPEAKER_04 54:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 54:07

And I don't mind someone bringing up like a brief example to show me that they went through something similar. So I would have some trust that they know what they're talking about. That's fine. But make it brief. Right? Then let's get back to what I'm talking about. Right. But they don't do that. Usually they just gallivant off. And about that time, in my mind, they've gone, they've gone into the bad category. Okay. You've moved over to the bad category. I'm not going to bring you thing anymore. About so when you're talking about your posse and how to set those boundaries and how do you know? These are some qualities. Also, if you're around someone and let's say here's an example. Let's say you're around somebody and they want to go to this new Thai restaurant in town. Okay. But you absolutely loathe Thai food. If you feel nervous saying, you know, I really don't want to go to that restaurant, is there another one we can like both enjoy? Maybe like the Italian restaurant or the Mexican restaurant? I just, I don't do well with Thai. I don't like Thai. If you feel uncomfortable saying that's bet that that's a version of no, right? Everything I just those words that I just gave you was a version of no. If you're in a relationship with someone and you feel uncomfortable saying no, or anytime you say no, you're overridden. This is a problem.

SPEAKER_04 55:35

Yeah. And I've known lots of people like that where it feels uncomfortable. Because I know what they're going to do, or we I know how they're going to react to that. And so I want to protect myself, you know, so I don't say it. That was the before pan. That was the the broken pan.

SPEAKER_00 56:00

We we have that, but no, that broken talking about the boardroom, that broken part is in your boardroom. Like my I have multiple parts like that that are in my boardroom. And so when we're in we're in situations with people and there might be, for example, a part of us might say, We have to, we have to go along. That that broken younger part, that hurting part, might be in the boardroom saying to you, Well, we've got to go along with whatever they say, because if we don't, they might not like us. And then they're gonna reject us, and then we're gonna be abandoned, and then we're gonna be all alone.

SPEAKER_04 56:32

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 56:32

Okay, let's just be brutally honest. That's what those parts say. Yep. The thing of it is, this is a comment that that I remember from being in that initial boundaries book was if you feel like someone is gonna leave you for saying no, then you've actually already been left a long time ago in every way, but physically.

unknown 56:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 56:59

I'm like, oh wow, I never forgot that particular phrasing. And that again, credit to Drs. Henry Clatt and John Townsend. They said that. And I thought that was gold. Because that's what people and I've heard people say that to me in my office. Okay, well, at Bedana, if I don't go along, if I don't do what they want me to do, then they're gonna criticize me, then they're gonna reject me, and then they won't be my friend anymore. Which is abandonment. Okay, that feels like abandonment. And I'm like, okay, I that's true. I can't tell you that's not gonna happen. We both know it probably is. But here's what's also true. If you're in a relationship with someone and you you can't ever say no, you can't ever go against what they want, then they've actually already left you a long time ago in every way but physically. You are not represented in that relationship, it's just them.

SPEAKER_04 57:58

Mm-hmm. That is there's truth to that. And I I met this woman once and she teaches listening as a skill. And that really made me think, you know, a lot of people don't know how to listen. Exp I'm a retired youth minister, and so parents don't really know how to listen to their teens. I mean, they don't they don't give them a voice, right? And so that's I would always say to the parents that you have to give them a voice. And what that means is you must listen to what they are saying, and maybe their views or thoughts are not the same as yours anymore. Parents don't like to hear that. No, they don't I've been in some doozy conversations, but anyway.

SPEAKER_00 58:51

Woo!

SPEAKER_04 58:52

Lordy, yeah. But anyway, so uh I love this so much. So at what point do you think you s you can stop being the person that you know that overgives and actually starts looking inward and becoming that's my most favorite word in the world is becoming.

SPEAKER_03 59:16

I love it.

SPEAKER_04 59:17

And and it's you know, but becoming someone who protects their energy. How at what point? I guess when they've just been so exhausted, and you know, we talk a lot about quiet depletion in women because we just take it on, we take keep taking it on the outside. We appear perfectly normal and successful and thriving. And, you know, in corporate positions, you know, they in the C-suite, they have quiet depletion big time. But over time, you see, it will catch up to them in one way or another. Like mine was food, right? My relief, my release was food, and before I knew it, I weighed over 300 pounds. But you don't really acknowledge it or you're not aware. So I guess, but when I started getting sick is when I was that was the point for me. So it I guess everyone just has to go over keep going over their boundaries over and over and over until something happens that causes them to notice wow, all these issues with all these different people, the only common factor is me.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

Yes, and you you brought up a point earlier that I thought was really good as well, is that we are one human and we vacillate, we go back and forth between home and work, home and work. Yes. And the majority of people, especially women, you know, they have per uh like people at schools, like their children's schools, that are asking them to participate and, you know, be over committees, you know, to head committees like the you know, the fall festival committee, or be on the PTA, or be a room mom, and then you have places at church, you know, the church is wanting them to, you know, will you oversee the the making the soups for Wednesday night, or will you teach this class or whatever? And then and then you have recreational things, and then you have work, and it you are not, we're not compartmentalized, just we're not like a robot that somebody unplugs us at the end of the workday, and we just somebody just like scoots us into the closet and unplugs us and pulls us out the next morning when the workday starts. That's not how that works. We go home, and that's why I'm so passionate about this because the work life, the work experience impacts how we are when we get home, and how we impact when we're at home, whether we're in volunteering at school or at church or how we are with our family at home, those experiences impact how we are at work. And you mentioned shame and guilt, and those kind of swim around like in murky waters, like where you can see the water moving, but you don't, you know something's in there, but you don't know what it is. It's shame and guilt, right? That's what's swimming under there in the dark, icky murk, you know, and it swims around and it depletes us of our energy. It depletes us at home and it depletes us at

Baby Step Scripts That Hold Firm

SPEAKER_00 1:02:11

work. So it's learning how to be aware of how you feel and setting small boundaries. Like let's go the example that we were talking about earlier with someone who is, you know, lazy at work and wants to take advantage. Let's say that they've for three months now, they've dumped a whole pile of stuff on your desk about 15 minutes before the end of the day, and they want you to do it all. And so you're at work an hour and a half over time, you miss supper with your family because you're working, doing all this stuff that this other person expects to be done when they get uh to work at nine o'clock the next morning, right? And you do this for three months. Well, you're furious, you're upset, you're mad, you're angry, your relationships are falling apart, you're not you're not happy, you're you're feeling bitter, you're feeling resentment, you're not talking anymore, you're not doing fun things anymore, you're shutting down. Right. Well, I love the fact that you talk about the pause because you can take a pause, recognize what's going on, and take a baby step. Because I'm telling you right now, Pam, someone that has done that for like the office bully and has done that for three months, if you suggest to them that they all of a sudden just stop doing it, they're gonna freak out. Yes. Okay, let's be brutally honest about that. Nobody's suggesting that. What I'm suggesting is, like what you said a few moments ago, it's the slow what how what was the phrasing that you used? It was basically going but going slow, like um small incremental steps.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:48

That's what I always say.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:50

So going back to the office, and the next time that the the let's say it's a guy and he drops his stuff on your desk, and he does that because you've trained him to, by the way. Okay. Yes, let's be honest about that. So he drops his stuff on unceremoniously, plops it on the edge of your desk, and he gets ready to head off and have beer with his buddies. You can say, let's say his name's Dan. So you know, Dan, I'm happy to do about half of this for the next week, and then you need to find someone else. So so you're Dan, you're not gonna do the whole thing. You're saying, I'm I'm happy to do half of it. Yep. So the the other half you can take back, and I'll do this half for the next week. So you'd have a week to figure out who else you want to target in this office to bully, because it ain't gonna be Dan me. That's who it's not. So it's so you you do it in slow baby steps. Because we have to be honest though, we have to have grace because we trained, like, say if I did this, I would have trained Dan to take advantage of me. I trained him to do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:07

So when I start shifting my gears and I start changing my boundaries, he's going to be shocked. Yeah. He's not going to be very happy with me. And we have to say that's understandable because I've made his life really easy for the past three months. So when I start changing my boundaries, I have to have grace for him.

unknown 1:05:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:30

Because I trained him that I would do it. So when we start shifting our boundaries, we have grace for the other person. That's why we do it in baby steps. So they have a chance to adjust to our new boundaries.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:47

Exactly. And and it's not it, and a lot of times it's how you say it to them. You know, it shouldn't be done in anger or defiance. You know, you can diplomatically Yeah. Start changing things in small steps. But you have to be direct. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:06

Because if you because if I were to say, like, oh, well, would it be okay with you, Dan, if maybe maybe I did like half? Would it be okay with you if maybe I just did half of this? And he would say, No, I need it all done by nine o'clock. What are you thinking? And then he's walking down the hallway. You don't do it like that. You're respectful and you're nice, right? But you're direct. You say, Dan, I'm happy to do half of this for the next week. And then you need to find someone else to do it. This is not a you don't what you don't say, what's hanging in the air is this is not a request. I'm not asking your permission. This is going to happen. This is what I'm going to do. Because he can't make you do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:54

Right. And if you don't pose a question, he does he doesn't get to answer.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:58

There is no question. Yeah. So you say it nicely, you say respectfully, but you say it in a direct way, and you just do it in baby steps. So you you feel like it's something that you can do.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:09

Yes. So much. You know, this reminds me of um my podcast used to be the plus one theory. And the plus one theory is not a dating situation. That's what people think. But it's doing your best plus one more. You know, and I came up with that name in eighth grade. But anyway, it's it's helped me, it's helped me raise my kids. They had it drilled into their heads. But plus one means doing your best plus one more in kindness, with kindness, you know, compassion. But don't let people run over you. I mean, that's what I would tell my son when he had bullies happening. I'd just say, you're not allowed to fight, son, but don't let them hurt you.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:53

Yeah. Well, even, and I love the plus one if you think about a work scenario or even any kind of scenario where you do your best and you can do one, one small thing extra, as long as you limit it to the one, then you can do that for on and on and on and on and on. That's the long game right there. It's the people that go plus 25. Yes. Those are the ones that they look fantastic and everybody loves them for about six months until they're in the ER and then they quit.

unknown 1:08:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:26

Right? I'm speaking the truth.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:28

It is the truth. I mean, my own daughter, she's 30 now, but she I I used to be so terrible about overextending myself by doing for others. And this is when I was in ministry. I mean, you get caught up in that real easy. That's why youth ministers burn out.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:44

But I was just going and blowing and uh trying to save everybody. And finally she came up to me and she said, Mom, I'm just gonna be frank with you. If you keep going at this rate, I'm afraid you're gonna end up in the hospital or worse. I I need my mom. Please stop giving so selfishly.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:06

I love that giving. Well, and and to say giving selfishly too, because you were doing that, you know, it was meeting a need for you.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:13

Yeah. Yeah. I it just was a rude awakening for me to have my daughter plead with me to stop giving all of me away.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:24

I love it. Yeah. Sounds like a valuable conversation.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:28

Yes. Speaking of, uh we before we wrap up, I I really would love for you to share with our listeners where they can find you, connect with you, or learn more about your work.

How To Find Dana And Her Quiz

SPEAKER_00 1:09:45

Sure. Yeah. They can go to Dana Skaggs, um, D-A-N-A-S-K-A-G-G-S.com. All the stuff is there. There's you can get a hold of me for coaching or I have courses. Um, you can book me to do to speak if you have a group and you want me to come speak to your group and kind of bring in. And then my keynote has a lot of personal stories that are funny, and you know, I I I just I like to laugh and be real. If we can't be real, what's the point of it, right? And if somebody wants to take a quiz, if they're like, well, uh, do I have boundary issues? I think maybe I do, but I'm not sure. You can go to danaskags.com slash quiz and you get to take this free quiz that I think it's about 10 questions on there, and then you get feedback about where you stand with your your boundary setting and how that's impacting you, and to try to give you a little bit of guidance and some help. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:42

Okay, so perfect. We'll make sure that all of that is in the show notes, as usual, so it's easy for everyone to find and connect with you. And

Newsletter Support And Share The Link

SPEAKER_04 1:10:53

for those of you listening today, if this conversation resonated with you and you want to go a little deeper into this work, I share more of these ideas throughout the week in my newsletters. So we will feature Dana when her episode airs. We're going to feature her all over the place. And so I'm sure you can learn more, you know, by reading these newsletters. So Tuesday is the short story, Wednesday is inside the pause, and Thursday is behind the mic, where we break down this conversation. And you can find all of that in the show notes as well. Just be sure to sign up and get them delivered straight to your inbox. And of course, if something in this episode stood out to you and someone came to mind while you were listening, I do that a lot too. Don't keep it to yourself. Copy the link, send it to them, share it. Because these are the kinds of conversations that help people feel seen and and start to shift something in their life. And so just remember, you don't have to fix everything all at once. Like Dana said, just small steps. You can pause long enough to notice what's happening and choose what's actually serving you. And that's how you take your power back. One moment at a time. Dana, thank you for your time today. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:18

Thank you, Pam. This was wonderful. Thanks. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:21

And I'll see you all next week.