The Moment You Realize the Life You Built No Longer Fits | Michelle Cantrell

What happens when the life that once made sense suddenly doesn’t fit anymore?

In this Becoming Series conversation, therapist Michelle Cantrell joins Pam Dwyer to explore how many of us quietly lose connection with ourselves through roles, expectations, and coping habits that once helped us survive.

Together they unpack how self-belonging, parts work, and midlife transitions like gray divorce can become powerful turning points that restore vitality, clarity, and real connection.

In this conversation we explore:

• joy as a practice — and sometimes an act of rebellion during uncertain times
 • how comfort, security, and predictability can quietly replace vitality
 • why self-abandonment inside long relationships can lead to emotional numbness
 • the hidden link between coping behaviors and unmet relationship needs
 • people-pleasing and high achievement as socially approved forms of disconnection
 • burnout, human giver syndrome, and the nervous system’s functional freeze
 • a powerful inner-child reconnection story through breathwork and ritual
 • what changes when fear is no longer in control
 • what “gray divorce” means and why identity shifts hit so hard in midlife
 • the subtle signs you’re outgrowing a life pattern even when everything looks “fine”
 • practical first steps: curiosity, journaling, therapy, and body-based awareness
 • how the Delay the Binge™ pause helps interrupt automatic coping patterns

If something in this conversation resonates with you, it may be because you’re standing in one of those becoming moments yourself.

The place where something inside you is shifting.
 Where an old identity no longer fits.
 Where deeper questions begin to surface.

And if that’s where you are right now, remember this:

You don’t have to figure everything out today.

Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do is pause, take one small step forward, and trust that every experience you’ve lived has been preparing you for who you are becoming.

Michelle Cantrell is a Licensed Professional Clinical Counselor and founder of the Center for Growth and Connection, where she helps individuals and couples rebuild relationships with themselves and others through relational therapy, parts work, and body-based practices.

Explore Michelle’s work and connect with her here:

🌐 Website
https://www.centerforgrowthandconnection.com/

📸 Instagram
https://www.instagram.com/grow_and_connect_la/

🎥 TikTok
https://www.tiktok.com/@center.for.growth

📘 Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/michellecantrelllpc

💼 LinkedIn
https://www.linkedin.com/in/cantrellmichelle/

Watch the full conversation and subscribe to the Delay the Binge™ channel:
https://geni.us/delaythebinge

Transcript

A Pause That Starts Becoming

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome back to Delay the Binge Podcast. I'm your host, Pam Dwyer, best-selling author, speaker, and someone who deeply believes that sometimes the most powerful change in our lives begins with something very simple: a pause. A moment where we step out of the patterns that we have been running all of our lives. Long enough to see ourselves clearly again. Because when we pause with purpose, something interesting happens. We begin to notice the stories we've been living inside of. And sometimes those stories begin to change. Today's episode is part of a series that is very close to my heart. It's called the Becoming Series. Because if you think about it, every sunrise begins in darkness. And somewhere inside every life story, there comes a moment when life quietly begins pointing us toward who we are meant to become. Sometimes that moment comes through a challenge, sometimes through loss, and sometimes through a realization we can no longer ignore. But these moments matter because they mark the place where something shifts, where identity begins to evolve, and where we begin to understand something pretty powerful. We are not starting over. We are picking up the story right where we are, using every experience, every lesson, every trial as fuel for who we are becoming. Today's guest has spent much of her life helping people navigate those exact moments. My guest today is Michelle Cantrell. Michelle is a licensed professional clinical counselor, speaker, and founder of the Center for Growth and Connection in Pasadena, California. For more than a decade, she has helped individuals and couples build healthier, more connected relationships and navigate major life transitions. But her work goes deeper than traditional therapy. Michelle explores the quiet ways many of us organize our lives around rejection, abandonment, or loss, and how those patterns can sometimes keep us living in roles or identities that no longer feel true. Following the end of her own 28-year marriage, Michelle began speaking and writing about the deeper questions that often emerge in midlife questions about identity, belonging, vitality, and about what it truly means to begin again. Not by starting over, but by reconnecting with parts of ourselves that may have been waiting to be seen. Michelle, I'm so grateful you're here today. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Thank you so much, Pam. I'm really excited to be here. And this this topic is so close to my heart, as you just described. So this is really exciting to be able to share with others.

SPEAKER_02 3:03

I like when the stars align and and you meet someone that that thinks like you do and that is passionate about a lot of the same things. So I I'm excited too. So before we dive into all the deeper things, um I'd love to start with something simple. What what has life been like for you lately? What have you been most focused on, either personally or professionally in this season of life?

Choosing Vitality Over Predictability

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Well, I'm gonna start with just saying my life is amazing. And I I say that I feel like I do need to say that with a bit of a disclaimer because you know the world is not a uh a safe place right now for a lot of people, and there's a lot of scary stuff happening in the world, and so I don't want to disregard that um while I still take ownership of the incredible things happening in my life. And for me, joy is an act of rebellion, and I have so much joy and wonder and awe and amazement in my life every single day, which I work to cultivate. And so the things I'm most focused on right now professionally and really wanting to help people take a look at their lives and see if there are places where they are compromising their vitality for security and predictability, which are very important. You know, if we look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, that safety and security is right there at the bottom, right? We need to understand that we are safe in the world. And, you know, there are a lot of people that don't have that. But for those of us who have spent our lives structuring our goals around this idea of who we're supposed to be, we often then get to some place where it feels like we may have crossed the finish line and we still aren't happy. We still aren't satisfied and we have just shut ourselves down in in sort of in search of these things that are never going to be satisfying if we disconnect from ourselves in the process. So my my passion, the thing I'm focused on right now is really helping people look inward and reconnect with themselves and have a healthier relationship with themselves and other people because I think the the former um informs the latter. So um, you know, and so I'm I'm working on sharing that message in all kinds of ways professionally. And then in my personal life, I'm just trying to walk the walk and focus on the relationships in my life and orient myself. So I'm actually fairly new to California. I've lived here for two and a half years and my marriage fell apart after I moved here. So um, you know, I have spent the last two and a half years really cultivating my community, both personally and professionally. And, you know, for the first time in my life, I'm really working on developing those kinds of relationships. And that has been part of the the richness that I experience in my life. And, you know, frankly, Southern California is just a beautiful place to live. So I'm also just focused on enjoying living in such a wonderful place.

unknown 6:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

So instilling energy and inspiration not only in yourself, but in others. I think that's

Self-Abandonment And Reclaiming Needs

SPEAKER_02 6:15

pretty powerful.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Wow. Thank you. It's I'm on a mission.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Yes, yes. Uh, one of the things that um really stood out to me when I was learning about your work is how you talk about the relationship we have with ourselves, shaping every other relationship in our lives. Yes. So can you tell me? I'm curious, what originally drew you into helping people explore their relationships?

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Well, I think it comes a lot from the training that I've had as a therapist and really understanding that, you know, I mean, we hear some cliche bumper sticker statements, you know, like you you can't really feel loved by somebody else until you love yourself and or something like that. And, you know, it gets kind of trivialized when we say that, but I think there is an element of truth to it. And what I've come to understand in the work I do with others and in my in myself is that when we learn in various ways that there are parts of ourselves that are unacceptable to those that we are closest to, we start to exile those parts, we start to hide those parts. And then those parts never get the corrective experience to know that they are indeed lovable, that they are worthy of love. And so if we are showing up in our relationships not as our whole selves, then we're never gonna be able to experience the benefit when people do show up and want to love us unconditionally. And so what I've learned is I need to be able to show up for myself first before I can fully show up for other people in relationship. And, you know, in in my relationship that I had with my ex, you know, we were together 31 years, we were married for 28 years, and I really oriented my life around meeting his needs in the best ways that I could. I wasn't perfect. And um, and it but in doing so, it was a constant suppression of my own needs. And that is going to sever my relationship with myself. There was a lot of self-abandonment that happened there, happened there. And once I really, you know, was sort of forced into a place where I had to really look at that. Um, the end of my relationship was not my choice in the end. I I feel grateful that we ended up the way we did, and um, that that choice was made for me. Um but I I now feel I've been set free to reclaim my relationship with myself. And that now informs the relationships that I have with others because I'm not going to invest in relationships that don't reflect my inherent goodness. And I can't do that if I'm not connected with that.

unknown 8:57

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

I love that. You know, the idea that many of us, mostly women, I'm finding from my own research, that we quietly deplete ourselves and lose our identities completely. But it's because we are taking care of of our jobs, of our families, of our spouses, checking all the boxes, doing everything right, looking like we're so successful on the outside. But on the inside, we're quietly depleting our our identities. And we forget to focus on that. And and a lot of times we we reach out to unhealthy behaviors and habits, you know, to temporarily numb that feeling of pain or hurt that we aren't recognizing.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Do you find right? I think many people uh listening might recognize themselves in that without realizing it. Yeah. So can can you help us understand how how maybe that pattern would show up in everyday life?

Coping Habits That Mask Pain

SPEAKER_00 10:03

Oh, a million different ways. A million different ways. And you know, I think I had communicated in some of our exchanges ahead of time that when I first started out in private practice, I was focused on treating eating disorders. And what I quickly realized was every one of my clients were using their eating disorder symptoms to help cope with uh relationships that weren't effectively meeting their dependency needs, their very normal, healthy dependency needs. And so I think, you know, we look at rates of depression, we look at rates of anxiety, we look at rates of um, you know, suicidality, um, eating disorders, substance use in my framework, all of those things are ways of coping with relationships that aren't meeting our needs fully. And so we see it show up in all kinds of different ways. And um, you know, when I think about some of the communities that I've been a part of in the past where, you know, maybe like even alcohol consumption is really big, you know, everybody is around alcohol consumption. And don't get me wrong, I I enjoy a glass of wine or champagne. Um, but when I see people's lives really orienting around that, that's a signal to me that there's something that they're coping with that's really painful. And maybe they're not ready to face it, but I think it shows up in all kinds of different ways.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

Right. And and that's what we teach on this this show is that delay the binge is not all about food, right? It's it's about just pausing long enough to realize what you the behavior you're doing, whether it's alcohol, food, overworking, over pleasing, all the things we tend to do to mask, you know, what's really going on, what the pain really is. I think that happens to a lot of us, and we just don't we don't realize that the role that we're playing, the role that we're in, it really doesn't fit who we really are.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I think you kind of alluded to people pleasing and taking care of people. Those are some other more subtle ways. I mean, we we kind of, you know, we know we can recognize that eating disorder behaviors or substance use can be problematic, but I think there are these more subtle ways that are more societally condoned, um, like people pleasing, especially for women, and you know, high achievement, right? I work with a lot of folks who have really successful lives. They they have all the things that we're supposed to have. They're supposed to make us happy. They, they're at the top of their careers, they're financially compensated well, they have the the beautiful home and the family, and they're and they're traveling all over the world. And then they're sitting here coming to me saying, I should be grateful. Why am I not happy? And that comes back to that disconnection both from self and other, because we are so afraid to take the risks to hide the parts of ourselves that we often learn are unacceptable. We're too much, we're not enough, we're messy, you know, all of the negative beliefs that most of us hold somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Yes, yes. And and it's just a slow, I I I see it as like a slow death, you know, when you begin begin realizing who well, first of all, you have all this success surrounding you, right? And you think I should, I am so blessed, I should be the happiest person in the world. But in reality, I feel nothing. I'm numb. I don't feel a thing. And how can I fix that? How can I change it?

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

So it's just that they've piece by piece lost themselves, you know, over time.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

And so it can start it can start affecting your health as well, physically. It's not just a mental uh exhaustion. You know, the body, the body starts showing signs of exhaustion as well.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

So I mean, do you see that a lot in your in your practice?

Burnout And Functional Freeze

SPEAKER_00 14:08

A hundred percent. Um, and this is where I like to cite Emily Nagoski's work a lot on burnout. And, you know, she refers, I don't I don't know if she coined the term or she got it somewhere else, but human giver syndrome. And how women just continue to give and give and give. And it does take a toll on our adrenal glands, our nervous system. And, you know, we, I think many of us end up operating in what what's what we talk about in the therapy world is functional freeze. You know, it's it's like we're still moving through life, but to you to use your word, we might be doing it from a place of numb. And, you know, we're doing the best we can, but that that numb is it's keeping us from feeling the hard stuff in our lives, but it also keeps us from feeling the joy. And you can't have one without the other. And that's that's really the hardest part, I think, um, that gets overlooked when we talk about reconnecting with ourselves. We can paint it in this really lovely way. And, you know, I I feel like my job and my mission and for me in my life is to fall in love with myself every single day. But part of that process means confronting things that most of us have spent a lifetime of avoiding. It it means, you know, maybe sobbing on your floor for, you know, an hour. It means letting yourself feel the fear of rejection and loss and heartbreak. It means, you know, grieving what wasn't in your life, in addition to grieving what has been lost. And that is really hard work. That's that's hard and exhausting work, but let me tell you, the reward on the other side, if you have the ability and means to do it, and I I really want to qualify that, not everybody's in a place where they can take those risks. The reward is incredible. I never imagined I could have the life that I have now. And I'm not talking about, you know, sort of the more situational things. I'm talking about the inner life that I have now. So I yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

So you you actually love yourself. I do. So that that fear that that fear and that shame that we all carry around. The fear is the biggest one of rejection. I know you talk a lot about that, and and that could stem from you know, trauma from our childhood or just the way we grew up, just just that fear of failing and of rejection, just and shame, all those things quietly deplete us and and and steal our identity and our power to uh grow. You know, but a lot of times you're right, people people don't know or like you said, don't have the type of life where they can slow down. But I always tell people, it's just a few seconds, people, where you just take a moment to focus on, okay, why why am I acting this way? Why am I lashing out in anger? Why am I about to eat this huge piece of chocolate cake when I know it doesn't serve me? Or why am I having a six-glass of wine instead of just one?

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

And if we don't take time just to process and let the brain understand, because you know, I've been doing a lot of uh research, you know, the neuroscience of what the brain does is incredible to me. I'm obsessed with it.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

I I feel yeah. We could nerd out on that. That this is a whole different uh episode.

SPEAKER_02 17:38

Yeah, there'll have to be a whole new one.

A Bathtub Vision Of Self-Belonging

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Um I also you shared with me, and I'm not sure if you feel comfortable sharing it or not, a very powerful uh personal experience that happened recently on Valentine's Day, I believe. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

It was actually the day after Valentine's Day. I'm happy to share it because it was such a powerful moment that I think captures a lot of the message that I'm trying to convey. And um Valentine's weekend, I had planned ahead, you know, and and I've never been big on celebrating Valentine's Day, even when I was married. It was never a thing, you know, when our kids were little, maybe we'd get them a little chocolate, but that was about it. Um but I understand there's like this significance to the day, especially when you are not partnered with somebody. So the day before Valentine's Day, I had a Galentine's Day evening with some friends kind of in similar life stages, and that was wonderful. And then the next evening I had a Galentine's Day with my kiddos, and that was wonderful. But um, at the same time, I was also, you know, as a as a newly uh single person, you know, I I have a dating life and I'd been spending time with somebody, and I um I was struggling that that person, we weren't exclusive, and that person um was with somebody else on that day. And it was totally part of our agreement, you know, like nothing he he wasn't doing anything wrong. Um, but you know, there's that that that young part of me that wants to feel picked, that young part of me that wants to feel special. And that didn't matter how many female friends I was surrounding myself with, that part was, you know, feeling a little neglected, feeling a little ignored. And so I I was kind of feeling like the weekend was a little bumpy. And the day after Valentine's Day, I was not having a good day. I'd had all kinds of frustrations happen that day. And I I decided I needed to reconnect with myself, and I have rituals for doing that. And one of them is doing some guided breath work, which is very powerful for me. And so I did a guided breath work meditation, and then I took a long bath. And I have a I have a kind of a soundtrack for myself. And so I put on my playlist. And while I was in the bathtub, surrounded by my candles, you know, dimmed lights and my eyes closed, listening to this music. One of the pieces that came on, I suddenly started having these almost like dream-like visions. This is it wasn't like hallucinations, my eyes were closed. It was just images coming to my mind's eye. And there's this woman in these white robes, very kind of angelic looking, who held a baby in her arms and handed the baby to me. And in this vision, I immediately recognize that this baby was me. Oh gosh. And while I'm in the bathtub, I just start sobbing. And I just in my vision, just held this baby in my arms and said, I'm here now. I love you. You belong to me. And I just said it. And I I was doing this, I was, you know, kind of cradling myself in the bathtub. And and that what then what surprised me was then another younger version of me showed up. And this one was 10. And 10 years old was when I started getting shamed for my body from my father and getting put on diets and being being given the message that you know how my body appeared was very important. And and this this young 10-year-old needed to know she's lovable, even with her her round belly. And so I brought her in and gave her this hug and and said the same thing to here, her. I'm here now. I love you and you belong to me. And then my 14-year-old part came up. And let me tell you, talk about checked out. My 14 year old part was highly dissociated. She didn't really care whether she lived or died, she put herself in a lot of hurt herself in a lot of risky situations, not really worried about the consequences. And I brought her in and I said, I'm here now. You and you belong to me. And then kind of fast forwarded, then this 40-year-old version of me came on, came up, showed up. And this one was going through some pretty tough times. And um, she came to me in this vision after having walked into the woods on a cold fall day and just wishing she could go to sleep and never wake up. And in this vision, I just swooped her into my little circle of parts and said, I'm here now. I love you and you belong to me. And then finally, the 51-year-old version of me, the one whose marriage was falling apart, the one who was lying on the floor of my bedroom in a fetal position, not knowing what was going to happen next. And I just, I was so I I said the same things to her. I said, I'm here now. I love you. You belong to me. But I also said, You're gonna be okay. You're gonna get through this, and it's gonna be so amazing on the other side of where you are right now. And it's okay that you are scared, it's okay that you have grief, it's okay that you want to just collapse. But I'm here to tell you the other end of this is amazing. And as I'm having all of this in the bathtub, I'm like sobbing. My, you know, I'm like, I'm about to sob. Just catching my breath. But it was, it was this incredible moment of reconnection. And um, you know, I've been doing a lot of that over the last year and a half. That that that work is not new to me. That didn't just come out of nowhere. That's, you know, because of the structures I put in place around my own healing and recovery and growth. And and so, you know, it was sort of a reminder, oh, you know, I've gotten really busy this year. I've had an incredible year, I've had lots of um things happening professionally and personally. And so sometimes these parts do get left behind. And I realized this was a reminder that I it needs to be a daily practice to be connecting with these parts in the same way that if we're in relationships with others, we need to have daily practices, you know, saying the I love you's, touching in, you know, even if you're busy. And so that moment like really recentered me and recalibrated me in a way that was really, really powerful and has been sort of, I've been trying to kind of ride that since then, even though that was only a month ago.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

Oh my gosh. Michelle, first of all, thank you for sharing something so beautiful and raw because that's just incredible. So thank you for that. And it also should be, I think, a movie. No, it's the one where you watch it and you're so just in drawn in, it would just be a really like one of those little short films. I think we could do something with that really. So when you had when you had that realization, you know, that you could you could become the one you'd been waiting for all this time.

Fear Still Exists But No Longer Leads

SPEAKER_02 25:09

Is what shifted for you after that moment? I mean, did it make a huge difference for you from that point on?

SPEAKER_00 25:16

It it really did because I feel like, you know, just a couple of weeks ago I I came across this Maya Angelou book that was uh it it was an illustrated book and based on one of her poems said, um, I I think it's the the world doesn't fight me any frighten me anymore. And or life doesn't frighten me anymore. I wish I could remember the name of it. And and I really I've been quoting her a lot. There's a a quote that she has that about belonging that I adore and I repeat to myself often. And it really is about just belonging to yourself. And so I don't want to, you know, and I I was like, yeah, I'm not afraid. And then I realized that's actually not true. You know, I mean, most of the time I I don't feel a lot of fear at this point in my life. I'm not driven by fear as much. But what I realized is it's not accurate to say I'm I'm not afraid anymore, because that's not a human thing to say. Fear is a very normal human emotion for us to experience, and there are many moments when it's an appropriate response. But what I realized is I'm no longer controlled by my fear. And I'm no longer controlled by my fear because I'm secure in myself. I I know that I have everything I need within me to be able to cope with the inevitable heartbreak, disappointment, rejection, failure, loss, all of those things. As long as I'm living and breathing, all of those things will continue to happen in my life unless I structure my life in such a way that I'm never, you know, taking the risks, right? And then that that makes us small again. And the biggest shift for me is just realizing like I I'm I've been to hell and back internally. And like I've done that journey and now I know like if I can be there for myself. And that doesn't look, that doesn't mean I don't ask for help. In fact, it's the opposite. It means that I'm secure enough in myself that when I need help, I can ask for it, and that I live in a in a tribe of interdependence around the people who are so important to me. So this isn't about being super self-reliant or overly self-reliant. It's about being confident in myself that I have everything I need to succeed in the life that I want, including being able to ask others for help when I need it.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

Yeah. And it seems to me like you've learned what I have, which is I used to hate the climb, right? The climb of the mountain to get to the top. But I've been to many scenarios of being at the top, and it's very quiet and it's not what I thought it would be yet there. I get like this is it. And what I realized is it's that it's the journey where my eyes were shut the whole time. Now I open them and I look around, and just the journey is what makes us who we are. And yes, they're full of trials and they're not all roses and sun, you know, sunshine. Yeah. But it's it's part of what is helping us learn and grow and be better all the time. And so that's just my form of

Gray Divorce And Identity Whiplash

SPEAKER_02 28:28

midlife. You you talk a lot about midlife transitions. And you talk about something, I don't know what it is. I was gonna ask you, and maybe our listeners do or they don't, I don't know. But what is gray divorce?

SPEAKER_00 28:42

Yeah, it's it is a term that's being used a little bit more. Um I didn't make it up. Um there's if you if you Google it, you will find some, you know, I think a New York Times article not that long ago. Um, and you know, there's probably not a single definition of it, but the way I have come to understand it and the way I relate to it is it's it's referring not just to divorce or separation after having been partnered in midlife, but the phenomenon of having going through that after having been partnered, often for decades, because it's not just the divorce, it's not just midlife, it's the the monumental identity shift that comes after you have oriented your life around this one model of living. And then that that model gets, you know, upended overnight often. And so it's really navigating this major life transition after, you know, especially for women. And, you know, I I know it can be, you know, a monumental shift for men too. So I don't want to minimize their experience, but particularly for our generation where I think we were still really groomed to orient our lives around, especially in heteronormative relationships, around partners, where the, you know, the the the male partner his job was to go out and you know have a career. And the the female partner, even if we did have jobs and careers, we were still the ones doing a lot of the domestic labor and the relational labor. And so I know for myself personally, I really did derive first and foremost my identity from my role as a wife. And so when that got taken away from me after having, I mean, I I was I married longer than I wasn't because we got married very young. And so so much of my identity was around taking care of my partner, being the best wife I could be. I took great pride, and and sometimes his friends would be like, Well, you're so lucky, you know, because I was so cheat chill and easygoing and like I didn't ask, I didn't complain. Um, so it's it's sort of this convergence of the identity piece, the the being in midlife, which comes with other transitions, particularly for women around menopause and perimenopause. So our bodies are going through a monumental shift. You know, we it might be more challenging to regulate our emotions. We might be able to focus as much. Um, you know, our we experience our bodies differently, or you know, a lot of physical changes, maybe there's weight gain, um, you know, sexual arousal changes, that sort of thing that also can be wrapped up in identity. And then you add into that what often happens at that same time is empty nest, taking care of caregivers of parents, you know, aging parents. And so it's like this convergence of so many things. You know, if we think about, you know, what what it means to be gray, you know, it's like this is midlife. So gray divorce often coincides with all of these other major life transitions that just make it, I think, a unique experience, not better or worse, around the divorce process, but it is a different beast than, you know, somebody who's going through divorce in their 30s and, you know, maybe have been married for five years. Totally different beast. Again, it's not that that's a better experience or a worse experience, but I think understanding the impact of all of these forces coming together is really important when we talk about divorce in midlife.

SPEAKER_02 32:17

Wow. That's that's a lot. It's and and it sounds to me like maybe a lot of people think midlife and is more of an ending, you know. But you you're describing them as turning points.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

And seasons.

Endings That Make Room For Life

SPEAKER_02 32:36

It kind of makes it kind of makes me think about my granny, who was the one and only person in my life growing up that that was the she still to this day is the wisest woman I ever met. And she used to tell me I used to worry about her because she was alone. And I'd say, Granny, aren't you lonely? Is is it's just are you sad that you're by yourself every day? And and she says, Oh, honey, no. She goes, I have friends and I can see them when I want. And when I want to be alone, I can be alone. She goes, you know, women, women are like flowers, Pam. That's what she would tell me. I'm like, what do you mean? And she said, Well, every phase or season in our life, we establish a flower petal. So it could be a trial, something horrible, something joyful, but it's a flower petal. And slowly over time, as we re as we age, we are becoming this gorgeous, full flower blooming. And she says, and that's how I feel at this stage in my life. I feel, I feel like this beautiful flower. And she says, and then when we go to heaven, she goes, We're just this gorgeous rose or you know, a flower. So I I love that analogy because I relate to that now more than ever.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Yeah, and I think that's an important message to send because you know, uh the the truth is the life as I knew it did end. It wasn't ending. The future I had in front of me, the future I had anticipated for myself growing old with a partner, you know, I I envisioned us celebrating a golden anniversary one day. We were young enough when we got married that that is was well within reason to think that was a possibility. And so there was a lot of endings that came along with this change in my life. But you can't have a new beginning without an ending. And what lies ahead of me now, with the freedom that I have and the connection with myself that I have and the life that I'm building is so much more than what I ever could have imagined for the life that I thought I had in front of me. You are a beautiful flower. I I I love this because my grandmother was also into flowers. And so I I am very much uh this is in honor of my grandmother, my my sleeve on my arm, uh, which has a lot of flowers. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Yeah, grandparents are critical, especially if you're close with them.

Signs A Pattern No Longer Fits

SPEAKER_02 35:09

Yeah. You know, I want to circle back a little bit because on this podcast we talk a lot about brain patterns and understanding the frontal cortex versus the lower brain chatter. And there's habits and coping strategies that quietly shape your life.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

Sometimes it's um overworking or people pleasing, like we mentioned before. And sometimes it's just staying in a situation that no longer feels aligned.

unknown 35:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

So, you know, what are some signs that someone might be living inside a pattern that no longer supports who they are becoming? Because they maybe there a lot of times people can't see it.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

Yeah. Well, I will I'll lead from my own experience. And and I will say this is um a little bit of hindsight as 2020. And, you know, I I want to help people, maybe not have to wait to figure things out. But about uh three or four years ago, I decided I needed to go back into therapy. And, you know, as a therapist, I'm always in and out of therapist therapy. I want to continue my own personal journey and growth. And when I started with my therapist, I told her I can't experience joy. I I was who I like to work with, right? I I had it all. I had the wonderful life, the wonderful marriage, the kids, the suburban home, the the career that was very fulfilling for me. But I couldn't feel joy. And I also, the flip side of that, I couldn't cry. And I often joke, I don't know if you've ever seen the movie The Holiday with Cameron Diaz and um um my mind's blanking on her name, Kate Winslow. And you know, the whole movie, you know, Cameron Diaz's character is trying to cry, and she tells the story about how she the day she never cried again. And I felt like that. Like I would, I would watch shows and movies, and you know, every now and then a Hallmark commercial might get in get under my skin. But I felt like I couldn't have access to that part of me. And I I could see that that was correlated. I could see that like my inability to feel one was related to my inability to feel the other. And when I went back into therapy, I I presumed I was like, I must still, even though I'd done a ton of trauma work for my my childhood stuff, I was like, there must be some stone I haven't unturned that I haven't turned over yet. Um now what I realize is that I couldn't feel joy because there wasn't room in my relationship for it. Exactly. And and it wasn't until I got on the other side of that that I could realize that. But I think that's a really important sign that if you're if you're just feeling like you're going through the emotions, and there can be all kinds of other reasons for that, but if you are feeling like you're just going through the emotions, if you're telling yourself I should be grateful and I'm not happy, or I'm um, you know, feeling numb or disconnected or dissociated, I'd rather just spend my evenings watching YouTube or Netflix and checking out, you know, these checking out, numbing out. Yeah, these are really important signs. Those may be ways for you to actually be avoid looking at what's really happening. And again, I want to be compassionate towards that decision not to. You know, I'm very compassionate towards those younger versions of myself that weren't willing to see what was happening because there was security and predictability in my life, and that was worth a lot for me. Yeah. And and my my ex-husband and I, we had a good enough relationship in a lot of ways. We we weren't a high conflict couple, we got along very well, we did a lot of stuff together. Um, so it was good enough. But what I didn't realize, and this is not through any overt fault of his own, there just wasn't room for me to grow in that relationship. And again, we were very young when we got married. So we did a lot of growing together, but then we reached a point where I don't think either of us could continue growing in the ways that honored our true selves. And I really honor that in him. We we had a very amicable separation. Um, and so you know, I want him to live his best life, and I know he wants me to live my best life, and we realized we couldn't do that together anymore.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

Man, that is just that's that's love right there. You know, letting go because we talk a lot about relationships in the way that sometimes you evolve into a person that, you know, can no longer be with the same group or the same friends. You know, you you especially like I'm a retired youth minister. And so we used to all the kids would always talk about the friends I had in L you know, in middle school, they aren't my friends anymore now in high school, and they would be so upset about it. And we'd tell them, well, it's because you're no longer the person you were in middle school. You're evolving into some into the person you're going to be and who you really are already. It's just you are discovering that person.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:09

And it was just heavy, heavy discussions, but uh, you know, at all ages we feel that we're we're outgrowing the situation we're in, but we fear right not being in it.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

And so that's we talk a lot about the pause, you know, um, that moment where you you stop reacting automatically, you know, like a robot, and you begin to choose differently. But the only way that you can do that is if you get curious, right? You get curious and and try to understand why am I not feeling any joy, you know, and always seek you know therapy as well. I'm I'm a big advocate for that and save my life. So, uh, and journaling, you know, but just little things that you can do to figure it out because you know something's not right. You know, if you're not feeling joy and you're numb inside, what's going on? Take a moment just to try and figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

Yeah.

Curiosity And Parts Work In Practice

SPEAKER_02 41:11

Do you um do you see something similar happening in the work? I mean, do you see that a lot in your work with people?

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Yeah, yeah. I think it's um, you know, it's sometimes we can't see what's right in front of our face, right? We need to be able to take a step back in order to see what's really happening. And there are all kinds of ways we can do that, whether it's, you know, having a therapist reflect it back to you, or um, you know, I'm I I do my daily morning pages, so I write every day. And and but that's a newer practice for me. And and I often wonder, I wonder what I would have discovered if I had been doing this earlier. What because eventually, you know, that blank page, it wants to be filled. And so eventually the the truth starts leaking out, whether or not you want to put it on paper. And so, you know, really finding ways to be able to look at what's happening in your life. You know, it might even be something like yoga or breath work, like these ways to connect with yourself. There's information in our bodies, you know, going back to sort of the neuroscience and the physiology of all this, there's lots of information in our bodies that's there if we want to get curious. And if I had really tuned into that sooner, I might have discovered things that it took my marriage ending to discover.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

Right. And it it's the just the awareness, right? Where we become aware of what's really happening. But you have to stop long enough, pause long enough to say, okay, what's happening here? And so when you've lost parts of yourselves along of yourself along wait, that's the other thing is that the realization, the awareness is one thing. But then once you're aware, I mean, uh and to be honest, we all kind we all really know what we should be doing. But where can where does the reconnection begin? Like how what's the first step someone can take to um to begin a relationship with themselves again, you know, to find themselves to to begin that relationship.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

Yeah, well, I think the key word that you used before was curiosity. I think it's just curiosity and really asking yourself in any given moment which part of me is showing up right now and what does that part need in this moment? And I very much use parts language in in how I uh conceptualize my own experience of the world and everybody that I interact with. And to me, it just makes sense, right? It explains why we have a part that that wants to stop binging, and another part that says this is the only way to deal with my pain, right? If we're kind of using that that framework for understanding. And so I think really just learning to ask that question over and over and over again um, what part of me is showing up right now? And what what is that part trying to tell me? What does that part need right now? What does that part need for me? What is does that part need to know? I'm here. You belong to me. I love you. Does it need does it need rest? Does it need play? Does it need sensual experiences, which can come in all kinds of forms? Does it need adventure? Right? It's really just coming back to that curiosity and understanding that whatever we're doing makes sense if we understand the context for it. And that context can come in the form of these parts, right? So if, you know, I think about going back to eating disorder behaviors, um, you know, when I was working with eating disorder clients, almost all of my eating disorder clients had learned to use food really early in their lives because they didn't have access to a lot of other coping strategies, right? And it's a natural way to self-regulate when you don't have caregivers that can help you co-regulate. And so when we think about the, you know, a lot of these parts that are engaging in these behaviors, they're often really young parts and they just need to know they're lovable, they're okay as they are, they're worthy, they're good enough. And so it's just how do we approach our behaviors and the and what those behaviors represent for those parts?

Delay The Binge With Compassion

SPEAKER_02 45:19

I really like how you reference the different stages of of who you, your your own, your person, like the child, the baby, the child. Because you're right, when when we're young, that's when those uh patterns start happening. And the brain loves patterns. So it's always gonna resort to that pattern, whether it's good or bad. Right. And I find that speaking to the child and pay the pan child. So a lot of times, you know, my my emotional outlet is food. You know, I used to weigh 350 pounds. And it took me forever to figure out it wasn't the tool that was gonna fix me. Yeah. It's it's what I needed to fix here that brought me there in the first place. So I started, this is actually where delay the binge came from. I started telling my child, like if I was gonna eat something that doesn't serve me, I know that's not gonna do me well, but I'm still gonna eat it anyway. I would say, look, little Pam, we can have this, but tomorrow. Just not right now.

SPEAKER_00 46:19

Right.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

And man, it would work because tomorrow would happen and it was a long enough break where I just didn't want it. I had time to think about why I shouldn't have it.

SPEAKER_00 46:27

Yeah. Well, and I think the beauty in that pause too is it's also sending that signal to yourself that whatever you're feeling that you're trying to avoid with the food is actually okay to feel.

unknown 46:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:39

Yeah, you're not broken. I tell people all the time, you are not broken. This is not about willpower.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

But if there's one message you hope someone listening today carries with them after this little conversation, and it's too short, but what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 46:56

To fall in love with yourself every day.

unknown 47:00

I just love that.

SPEAKER_00 47:01

Because when you can do that, everything else falls into place. It doesn't mean everything's perfect, but it means whatever you face, you can face with strength and courage and the confidence that you can get through anything and and really build the life that you want.

SPEAKER_02 47:18

Gosh, this has just been so amazing. So this is this is an episode that people are going to play over and over again because they want to hear all the nuggets.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

Wow. Well, that's wonderful. I I've so enjoyed having this conversation today.

SPEAKER_02 47:30

Oh, me too. Thank you so much for sharing the professional insights and that beautiful personal story with us today.

How To Connect And Final Message

SPEAKER_02 47:38

Listeners, if if listeners would like to learn more about your work or connect with you, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_00 47:46

Oh, yes. Um, so I do have a website for my group practice, which is um the Center for Growth and Connection. So the website is Centerforgrowth and Connection.com. And I do have various socials, which I think you said might be in the in the show notes, but uh uh on Instagram we are Grow and Connect LA, but there's some underscores in there. And um I also have an account on TikTok uh where I share videos and might you know try and do little nuggets. So those are usually the best places, and it's always under the Grow and Connect LA kind of label.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Wonderful. And yes, everybody don't panic. We'll have it all in the show notes so that you can find her easily and follow along with her wisdom and her nuggets. Um and for those of you today listening, if something in the conversation resonated with you, it might be because you're standing in one of those becoming moments yourself. The place where something in your life is shifting, where an old identity no longer fits, where deeper questions begin to surface. And if that's where you are right now, I want you to remember something. You don't have to figure everything out today. Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do is pause. Take one small step forward, and trust that every experience you've lived has been preparing you for who you are becoming. Thanks for being here. And Michelle, thank you so much for sharing your your wisdom with us today.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

Thank you, Pam. This was wonderful. I enjoyed our conversation.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

I did too. I'll see you guys next time on Delay the Bench Podcast. Talk to y'all next week. Thank you.