Jo Weatherford | Building Peace After Chaos: Recovery, Relationships, And Telling The Truth | Ep60

We explore addiction to substances and people, how trauma bonds masquerade as love, and why joyful sobriety demands daily integration. Joe Weatherford shares practical tools like one more second, journaling, and compassionate curiosity to pause urges and build peace after chaos.

• addiction as state change and pattern, not just substance
• trauma histories shaping attachment, conflict, and compulsion
• love versus trauma bonds measured by repair and nervous system cues
• spiritual bypassing replaced with feeling, naming, and truth
• pause practices, one more second, and 90‑second urge windows
• women’s quiet depletion and the cost of overgiving
• body symptoms as signals for alignment, not enemies
• micro‑actions for integration, intention writing, movement, nutrition
• expanding capacity for joy and disrupting self‑sabotage
• self‑responsibility with compassion as a path to peace

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This is Delay the Binge™ — formerly The Plus One Theory Podcast.

Delay the Binge™ explores the patterns behind urges, habits, stress patterns, burnout, and Quiet Depletion™ — and what happens in the pause between impulse and action, where real behavior change begins.

Through conversations with leading experts in neuroscience, psychology, resilience, and human behavior, you’ll gain practical insight into how the brain shapes reactions — and how small, intentional shifts create lasting behavior change.

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Transcript

Welcome And Today’s Focus

SPEAKER_00 0:01

This is the Delay the Binge Podcast. Today's conversation explores addiction, the moments underneath the urge, and what becomes possible when we slow down and get curious instead of critical. Take a breath. You're in the right place. Today I'm joined by Joe Weatherford. Joe is a TEDx speaker, educator, and recovery advocate whose work goes far beyond addiction as a behavior. She helps people understand what we're really reaching for when we numb out and who we become when we stop running and start telling the truth. Joe, welcome to the show and thank you for being here today.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Aw thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

You're so welcome. So today we're going to talk about addiction to substances and people, spiritual bypassing, and what it really takes to build peace after chaos. So, Joe, for people meeting you for the first time, how do you describe what you do now and why it matters to you? Oh, beautiful question.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Um now I speak about addiction, but more so I speak about recovery. And that is important to me because I can remember when I was trying to get sober, I didn't see a lot of people that were really thriving and happy. I saw a lot of people that had quit using, but they didn't seem to be really enjoying themselves. And that was important to me. It was like, okay, if I'm gonna get sober, I need, I need joy in my life because if I'm gonna be miserable, I'd rather be high and miserable. And so my passion really is talking about the the magnificent life that you can create. And I never miss it, I don't think about it, I don't um ever go, oh my God, back in the glory days. Like there's no part of me that needs that substance. And I'm human, of course, I have bad days, I go through painful things. Um, but life can be can be truly incredible and when you heal what was causing the need to numb out. And so I love speaking about that. Um, and then also I work with clients one-on-one and get to walk with them on their journey to recovery, whether from substances, people, whatever transition they're navigating.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

You are incredible. Where were you when I was in my 20s? That's what I want to know.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Uh, I was not in a good place, maybe in jail.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

So I might have been right there with you. My my book, From the Piney Woods, is a memoir. And it's all about growing up in East Texas, but being in a very abusive, dysfunctional type childhood, it really did a number on me in my young 20s and 30s. And so I can relate a lot to to to much of what you you share with us. So, um, what part of your story um do you want to share today? It doesn't have to be a lot, just just pieces that maybe set the tone for our conversation today.

Addiction To Substances And People

SPEAKER_01 3:10

Well, you know, like a lot of people that find themselves caught in addiction, I had a I had a weird childhood in that some of it was so beautiful, was so magnificent. And then some of it was was really, really difficult. Um, I was molested at age four. I had a really phenomenal family, and then um addiction kind of hit the family. So I went from like a very stable, very secure, very loving home to one that was very chaotic and unpredictable, which really set the tone for a lot of my attachment issues growing up. Um, intense fear of abandonment, and then also seeking out these really chaotic relationships that were sometimes amazing, the highest of highs, and then of course the lowest of lows. I also think the um molestation at such a young age imprinted a lot of beliefs in what I thought about myself as far as sexuality, my worth, my value in the world, people pleasing, saying yes when I meant no. There was so much that it was like a computer program downloaded in me. And so um it was fascinating. Getting sober was step one. And then I had this long journey, um, which I'm still on, of decoding a lot of of the beliefs that then I took on um as a child. And then, of course, during my addiction. So yeah, I mean, those are are some of the key points. I went to rehab multiple times, and I think that's important to share for anybody that's like, oh, well, I tried it, it didn't work. It's like it may not um the first time. So that happened. There was no amount of consequences. Like I said, I was in jail and it was awful. I hated every minute of it, and I got right out and went right back to what I was doing. Um, there was just no way I was gonna stop until I did. And that's the other piece that I want to really communicate. Like, I have worked in the addiction field now for over 15 years, and I was one of the worst, if not the worst, alcoholic I ever met. So um it's interesting. People commented on my TED talk. I know you're not supposed to look at those, but I did. And they were like, Oh, what'd she go through? I bet it was nothing. And look at her, she doesn't know about it. Was and I'm like, no, I I was so sick. I got a DUI at a 0.34, like where most people are dead. I was driving. So that you know, gives you some kind of idea of how advanced my alcoholism was and um multiple suicide attempts. So my my goal though, and kind of giving that highlight reel the worst moments is like, and now it's really good. Like all of that happen, and you can be completely on the other side of that.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Man, that is incredible that you are sitting here speaking with me on how it was for you. I I too can do that. And sometimes it is surreal. You know, when I look at my life now compared to what it was, I'm just like, what was what was I thinking? But it's the brain, the brain literally seeks pattern, seeks out patterns, good or bad. It loves patterns. And so, like you said, when you go to rehab, you'd get out and you'd probably go back to what you were doing because the brain was saying, that's the lower brain, by the way. I've been doing so much research on that lately, the frontal cortex, the thinking part of our brain versus the lower part. Yeah. The lower part of our brain is the one that just temporarily wants to comfort you. Yes, go ahead and drink that bottle of booze because you you deserve it. You need it to feel better. Right. Life is hard. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard so much. So I've heard you say before that addiction to people and substances um are this are different. So what do you mean? What are you, what are the patterns that show up across both of those?

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Well, it's I love that you're talking about patterns because it really is the same pattern. It's just the different hit, you know? But even that, um we're trying to, when we use, we're trying to start feeling something or to stop, right? And that's an addiction and non-addiction. Like there's people that drink socially, they don't have a problem with alcohol, but they are going to drink to feel joy or stop feeling social anxiety, or you're looking to alter your state of consciousness to whatever degree, right? The addiction clicks in once we do it compulsively with negative consequences and can't stop. But we're always using substances or people to change our state of consciousness. So for me, um, the the easiest way I can explain it is just my own journey. I had gotten sober off alcohol and I was sober for a year, but I hadn't done the deeper healing work. I had just started to work on myself, truly. And so then I met my ex-husband and he just instantaneously became my drug. And there was this obsession and there was, you know, intense chemistry, passion, sex, you know, all of it, right? Which was the highest of highs. All the same chemicals are released as with substances. And then there was this crash, right? Because it was not sustainable, it was toxic. There was a trauma bond that was bringing us together. We were literally together to work through our stuff, through one another. And so we would crash. And then that's the despair, right? And that was the cycle. And it was no different than my addiction to alcohol. It was just an addiction to a person, to a feeling, to a pattern, to an experience of being in my system chemically, spiritually, physically, where the highs and lows had completely taken over.

Reading Rooms And Repeating Chaos

SPEAKER_00 9:02

You know, from um, I guess it's about eight years of therapy for myself, um, you know, I learned that when you grow up like we did with some type of, you know, abuse or trauma in your childhood, we learn to read the room, right? And we go to the person that is not the most stable. We go to the, we're drawn to the person that is broken like us, because uh for me, I wanted to make the room safe, right? So I was going to go to the worst person in the room and try to control and manipulate that person so that he wouldn't hurt anyone else. And so it was a defense mechanism. But I I've seen it over and over where when you come from some form of trauma, for some reason we want to continue that pattern.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Well, and it it is, it's homeostasis, right? And organisms will fight to the dying death to stay the same, even if they're in horrible dysfunction because it's comfortable. You know you can survive it. You've adopted all those skills that work really well in that environment. Um, and change is is so terrifying as you're speaking. I remember early on in my relationship with my ex, he he looked at me and um I asked him, I said, why do you love me? And he said, because you understand my pain. And at the time, I thought, like, oh my God, that's so beautiful. And now, you know, in hindsight, I'm like, wow, that's that's very telling and not nearly as poetic as I would have liked to have thought at the time. And so, yeah, I think it's important too to remember, it's like, especially when we're talking about relationships and manifestation, all of it, it's like we don't get what we want, we get what we are. So you can't have this idealized version of you that is existing out in the future, and you're like, oh, my person's gonna meet that version. But it's like the energetics that you hold now, the patterns, the emotions, the trauma, all of that. You get what you are, and we will find that mirror, you know. So it's so important to do the work first, then make those lifelong commitments.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Yes. I have a uh my listeners love it when I talk about uh motivation. Motivation doesn't happen before the action, motivation happens after we act. And, you know, but I want to go back to what we were just talking about. I kind of left that that thought. But um, so how do you help someone tell the difference between uh love and uh trauma? You know, like they've been traumatized. Like you said, they associate it in a wrong way. How do you how do you help them see the difference?

Love Versus Trauma Bonds

SPEAKER_01 11:47

I mean, so much of it is in the way that you argue or the way that conflict is handled. You know, um when something arises that needs our attention, we need to set a boundary, we need to have an uncomfortable discussion. You know, when we're in a healthy relationship and we are healthy ourselves, we're able to do that without this great energetic charge. We're able to come to the table, say what we need, talk about our boundaries, spheres, desires, hear the other person, compromise. Um, there's just this um, it's it's how we feel in our bodies during it. There might be a little activation, but for the most part, we're in ourselves. In these relationships that are very, very trauma-bonded. Um, the dynamics, the charge, the pulse, it's insane. It's so intense. There's, you know, screaming, there's insulting, there's stonewalling, people are leaving. It's almost um, like for my ex and I, it was like every three months, like to the day. There's patterns, you know, you can only go so long without it getting toxic. There's lots of signs, you know, um, and also the inability to get out of something. Like if you are in conflict all the time, that's a good indication that maybe this is not a solid match, but you can't leave. You know, if you are compelled to stay in something that maybe doesn't feel well. So so much of it is really exploring because no relationship is perfect. We're always going to need to compromise. Actually, disagreements are very healthy when they're handled correctly. But again, your ability to stay with yourself, in yourself, and communicate, you know, effectively rather than this trigger charge, heightened, cheating, blah, all the bullshit that cuts, you know, you can see it. And um, I do believe that if you can help somebody get still enough, they know. They know the answer. Like, and they may not be willing to do anything about it. Like, there's denial, and I get that. We can really lie to ourselves magnificently. But most people are kind of more in that stage where it's like, nah, you know, but you're not ready to do anything about it. And that's okay, you know, it's but it's powerful to even say that. Like, I know this dynamic is unhealthy. I know I am caught in in some kind of toxic, and I'm not ready to to leave yet. There's more for me to learn here.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

And that's exactly that that's what we teach in delay the binge. It's not just about food. You know, we talk about how taking a pause, for some people it may be 10 seconds, for other people, five minutes. But whatever gives you a pause long enough to realize what it what's really going on here. Where is the pain? What's causing me to do this unhealthy thing? You know, and it could be overworking, over pleasing, drinking, you know, food, definitely food, played a big part in my demise.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

But I I after researching a lot uh on you, I I noticed you talk a lot about spiritual bypassing. So can you can you talk a little bit about that? Tell the listeners, you know, more about that, Boris?

The Pause, Curiosity, And Inner Child

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Well, like the biggest strategy and and key, you know, component of healing, I believe, is is being really good at being able to sit in your pain. We don't want to stay there forever, obviously. It's not, it's not anything anybody enjoys, but I mean, that's my entire brand is this idea of hurt better. Like there is a way that we can learn to be with our pain, to sit in that activation that feels so horrific. And instead of reaching for the thing, the person, the drink, sex, whatever our thing is, when we can just sit in it and get curious. Um, I heard years ago, I was at a Peter Levine workshop and he said something that really landed with me. He said, trauma and creativity cannot coexist. And so it's like in those moments of real activation, is there any part of you that can get creative and compassionate and explore? What is this feeling? When have I felt it before? You know, what age am I when I can tap into the remembering of my nervous system going offline like this? What is familiar about it? What do I need? You know, and that's where some of the IFS or child work, you know, can come online. And it the way that I can explain it is this, you know, if you picture yourself as a little six-year-old that's like, hey, I'm hurting, what did you need from a parent that is loving and wise and present? And it's like, be that for yourself. Like, I love you and I'm here and I know you're really scared. And try to identify the emotion because the more that we can understand it, befriend it, like instead of running from it, okay, you're here to serve me, you're here to show me something that needs healing within me. And also remember, the thing is never the thing. We're not upset we got a parking ticket. You know, we're upset about control, fear of finances, you know, whatever. There's something below the below. So getting curious with yourself, what is underneath this? What is the story I'm telling about it? You know, it's like you can have two people that both go through a breakup, and one of them is like, oh my God, okay, well, that's hurtful, but it's not my person. Great. Now I can find somebody better suited for me, right? And then the other person goes through a breakup and it's like, oh, I'm worthless, I'll never find anybody, you know, depression just goes down into this dark place. It's like the meaning we attribute to things is really important. And more we can dive into that and go, whoa, what is the story I'm telling? What is the story I would like to tell? But it's about telling the truth. Spiritual bypassing is the I'm fine, or you know, find the silver lining. It's like, no, life is horrible and unfair and it hurts, and it's not okay. And you got to be able to sit in that and then be okay afterwards, you know. But we don't want to bypass the pain. That is addiction, but kind of the spiritual community has sort of packaged it like in Louis Vuitton and try to make it look pretty. And it's like, no, let's not, let's not do that to one another.

SPEAKER_00 18:08

It sounds a lot like what we talk about quiet depletion. And and it affects everyone, but mostly women, because we're going to ignore what we're really feeling in order to get check all the boxes and get everything done. And then we're quietly depleting ourselves so that we're exhausted and we can no longer focus on what who we are or any of our emotions. But I love that spiritual bypassing because that's what saved me, I think. And I don't even know how I knew to do it, but naming naming the pain for some reason helped me deal with it and you know get rid of it. But I didn't then I realized I don't want to get rid of it. I want to keep it, I want to look at it in the face, and I want to use it for purpose. And so that's what I ended up doing. I I couldn't stand the fact that all this terrible stuff happened to me and why didn't it happen to the girl down the street, you know, but I ended up using it, making it worthwhile because I like who I turned out to be, you know, and and if I hadn't gone through all of that, then I would not be sitting here with you talking to you about this.

Quiet Depletion And Women’s Overgiving

SPEAKER_01 19:19

So yeah, it's, you know, too for anybody that's like, I don't even know what I feel. I see this a lot with clients. Their nervous system has been in fight, flight, freeze for so long, they don't even know they're anxious until you get out of it. And then you're like, oh my God, I've been running on jet fuel for 35 years. So just know that's okay and that's a common experience for a lot of us. For me, I didn't even know what I was feeling. I literally had to look at like one of those doctor charts with the different smiley faces that had emotions underneath it, you know, and based on how big a smile or frown or whatever, I was like, oh, I think I'm anxious. I didn't even know what it felt like because I was just constantly in a state of disruption. So you may not even know what you feel when you first start this practice of like, oh, that's anxiety, or oh, that's whatever. So just know that that is common too. And I just want to hit really quick on what you were talking about with women because it just touches me so much. Um, Elizabeth Gilbert said it so beautifully. She said, women will wilt away in the overgiving. And when we look at studies like women who are unmarried, you know, um, without kids, they have lower rates of mental health, lower rates of addiction, they live longer, less ailments, right? Women actually sleep better when they're alone. Male partners sleep better when there's a partner next to them. Little girls thrive in girl-only schools. Boys do much better when there's girls in schools as well. We do worse. I mean, it's it's just stats, right? Like that's, you know, and I mean, no, no hate on men, but it's like we do need to really, really protect ourselves and make sure that we're not just like, oh, here, here's all of me all the time. You know, that's not selfish. That's self-preservation. And it's a beautiful thing. It's great to role model that to other women.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Yes. And I, I can't, you know, the more we talk about this quiet depletion, you know, the more it's women are paying attention. I don't think they realize how much they're burning, burning the candle at both ends. You know, they're just burning themselves out, doing it all, because they feel like no one else will do it. So they've got to get it done, whether they want to or not. And so they're forgetting about themselves and their own identity and their own, you know, just bonding with their own pain. And so they they do they they abuse substances or they eat too food, they abuse food, you know, whatever it is that allows them to continue in the fashion that they're doing it. You know, they're just burning themselves out. So I'm glad you came back to that.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Well, and it's it allows you to live a life that you're never meant to survive. You know, it's like you're out of alignment, you're in the wrong place, but I'm gonna take this substance to allow me to survive in the wrong environment. And so it's it's really critical that we we look at those things. I remember during my marriage at some point I got horrible IBS. I mean, I was hospitalized, nobody could help me, nobody knew was wrong. You know, I remember one time they were like rushing me in for surgery. They started, you know, a fentanyl drip, like they were putting me under to go into surgery. I get the CT scan because they're sure I have a blockage. I am so bloated and distended and sick. They're like, you 100% have a blockage. They get the CT scan, they're like, there's nothing. You're pulling the IVs out. They're like, we don't know what to tell you. It was so crazy. And my body, everything in me was just absolutely rebelling against, you know, staying in my marriage. And then it moved to insomnia, you know. So what did I do? I started taking sleeping pills, and then I get hooked on those because that's very on-ramp for me, you know, instead of going like, oh, why can't I sleep? Like, you know, so it's it's just really, really important that we, again, that compassionate curiosity of like, okay, the body is wise, the body is on my side, the body is trying to communicate what is it trying to say instead of like, yeah, shut up.

Body Signals, Illness, And Alignment

SPEAKER_00 23:17

Speaking of healers, I have like I've been to so many doctors, and this was before I did anything about my health, my weight, or my problem with food. I mean, I I was looking for them to find something horribly wrong with me. I mean, that's why I feel terrible. I had the IBS, I had high blood, uh uh high cholesterol, blood pressure, all the things. But they said, your labs look great. They couldn't find anything, any reason. And then, of course, they would just say, you either need to go get some counseling or you need to stop eating food the way you are. You're fat. And so they would never help me spiritually or mentally. And that is why I'm so passionate about helping people understand to how to figure out what's wrong, what's going on with the mindset and the s and the heart before you utilize all these tools that are out there now. You know, there's so many tools to control, like there's um bariatric surgeries, there's GLP1s, but the tool is not the answer.

unknown 24:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

And so anyway, I the aha for me, it wasn't the integration of the of the transformation. It was I've completely lost my thought. Help me here. But anyway, so I I'm just getting upset because I I hate that people are searching and finding addictions and they're also utilizing tools to do what they should be doing for themselves mentally.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Yeah, I mean, and those those can be great tools, right? In in conjunction with the real deeper work. It's like, do you love yourself, you know? And if you don't, do you like yourself? And if you don't, how do we start that process? Because that care and compassion and desire to get better is really important. I remember I was at a workshop once and we did this exercise where it was really beautiful. You imagine yourself as a little girl, little boy at at the edge of a pier and your feet are dangling off, and you know, you're sitting there, and then the person that you love the most in the world comes up and like grabs you from behind and just holds you and is like, oh my god, I love you. And it's like just imagine that, right? And so, you know, you see your person, and then he said, Now imagine it's you. And I was like, Oh my god, that that never would have occurred to me that it would have been me grabbing little me, you know? But that's kind of a good starting place is how do we get there, you know? Um, because we are all human and we have all done things that we are not proud of, and we are all a work in progress. And I still constantly am like, I cannot believe I just did that, said that, like that came out of my mouth, you know? Um yeah, 10 ayahuasca journeys, and I'm still an asshole sometimes. So it's like we just do, we do the best that we can do, you know?

SPEAKER_00 26:34

I do that too. Yes, yes, yes. Um, now I I've heard you say that something I love, love, love, and I'm trying to remember it exactly, where you said um, big openings are real, but the real work is what happens after. So, what does integration look like when the camera's off and real life hits?

Big Openings And Daily Integration

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Yeah, and I mean, those are those are the moments, right? And it's um we can have these tremendous aha moments, right? Whether um it's through a ceremonial experience, through therapy, through just life, you know, giving us one of those, like, oh, I see it, right? But knowledge doesn't change behavior. So we can have these big transformational moments, and that's great. And it gives us a glimpse into what's possible, but then it's like the day that you get out of rehab, you don't go back to the crack dealer's house. It's like you have to start taking steps in a different direction. And they can be micro adjustments, you know, but it's just like this one way I'm gonna go left instead of right. And it's little by little. And so integration to me is that slow, just kind of it's not real sexy and hot and spicy. It's just this kind of like grind it out and make different decisions when they are available, you know, and it's it's like trying to create just a little bit of space to see it differently, be different, and to kind of ask yourself like, if my higher self were available to me right now, what would she do? Like, what would she have me do? Because the same mind and heart that got me into a lot of this stuff is not gonna get me out. So it's like sometimes whether that's prayer, whether that's God, whether that's your highest self, whether that's somebody you admire, like lean into that energy, you know, of like, how would they have me move and start doing that? And sometimes it's just about giving yourself three seconds space before you say the thing that you would normally say. And even that, even if you end up saying it anyway, it's like these micro moments of change, you know, because the idea that we're gonna just radically transform our life overnight is nonsense. And that's another form of spiritual bypassing. And you hear it all the time, like, oh, I did this one thing and I was forever different. It's like I mean, I went and I did aversion therapy and I never wanted to drink again. So I'm not taking away the power of those moments. But just because I never wanted to drink again did not mean I was gonna stay sober. So again, here's a tool. It's gonna take away my cravings. Here's a tool, it's gonna take away my weight, here's a tool, it's gonna take away my whatever. But it's like if you don't inherently do the work, wherever you go, there you are. And the carrot is like perpetually outside of you, you know? Like you lose 10 pounds, you need to lose 20. You get the raise, you need more money. You buy the new car, you need a nicer car, and you train yourself in your brain that you're never actually satisfied. And so, how do we like make these smaller adjustments, get comfortable, you know? Like let that become the new us, and then introduce another little layer. Okay, now I'm comfortable in that. And it's like, for me, that has worked better than anything else.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

Beautifully said. That's what I was trying to say earlier. I love it. Um so we noticed we have the plus one theory, which is um small actions that make a big difference, you know, finishing stronger than you started sort of thing. So whenever someone um has a powerful realization, say on Monday, what are what do you think are two or three small actions they can take by Friday to make it real?

Plus One Actions: Make It Real

SPEAKER_01 30:23

It's a great question. I mean, some of it I think is just returning to that intention every day. Write it down every morning and every night. That aha moment of like, oh, this could really help me every morning, first thing in the morning, write it down in your journal. Before you go to sleep, write it down in your journal as if it has already happened. It is a recommitment. And if you can just do that every day, whether you do it or not, at least you're training your mind and training your heart to start moving in that direction. Some of it is just your discipline. It's like this is not easy and it sucks, and a lot of times it's not what we want to do. And it's like sometimes you just got to do it anyway. I mean, I will say my male clients tend to be better at this than women, but when you can't get, it's like you have negative thoughts, right? And then the negative thoughts stop you from doing the thing. So if you want to override that system and not wait to change your thoughts, because that can be really, really difficult, then you can change your thoughts by doing the thing anyway. So we can physically move in the direction that we want to go to change the thoughts, or we can change the thoughts to try to inspire movement. So play with that as well. Like sometimes just doing the thing can actually help you get movement, get traction, and then ingrain it, make it a habit. So just sheer grit and discipline. But writing it down, sheer grit and discipline, and then again, remembering your why. When you have a deep connection to the intention underneath the thing, whether it's losing weight, drinking less, whatever it is, like really, really tune in to your why. Um, and then, like for a lot of people, it's negative consequences, which we hate. You know, the idea is bring the bottom up, right? We don't want those negative consequences. But at the same time, thank God we have them if that's what causes us to shift. I have a lot of people that I work with that have pancreatitis that uh need to stop drinking. And when they don't, they end up in the hospital. When they don't, they wind up very sick. And again, that is the body's way of supporting us in our journey. And so it's like, you know, don't be mad at it. It's all here to serve us. So those are some of the ways. But stay, stay committed to your why, write it down. You know, there are things that we know that really do help improve our life. You know, gratitude list, reaching out every day to somebody, tell them why you love them, exercise, solid nutrition. Like we can be doing things to support ourselves that seem really like, oh, whatever. But it it makes a huge difference.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

It really does. And I love that you mentioned journaling because I'm a huge advocate for that. It's literally saved my life. Even in my book, every few chapters, I shared my raw journal notes from counseling every few chapters to show where I was at mentally, you know, and you can see this where I was healing literally throughout the whole book. But I love journaling. We do uh for quiet depletion, we do what's called a brain dump. And every night, if your mind is just so full of all these negative thoughts, everything that you have to do tomorrow, everything you didn't do today, you know, you literally just write, even if it's one word, write it down in the journal. And for some reason, that helps me sleep. It's like it's in the journal, it's no longer here. And so now I can rest. But giving my brain enough time to um hopefully create a new pattern instead of a bad, you know, a new good pattern instead of a bad pattern.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Well, it goes both ways, thank God, right? I mean, think about PTSD, you know, when when something horrific happens and we can, you know, be triggered to re-remember it and we're experiencing it as if it's really happening and it's a horrible, horrible thing. Well, we can do the same with good things as well. It's like go into a moment where you were really proud of yourself, relive that as if it is still happening, you know, and that's the thing. Don't just write the gratitude, feel the gratitude. Remember a moment, you know, that was so sacred, so special, you were so alive, and it's like feel as if you were in that moment. We have to, we have to flip the script and and use these things, you know, for good as well. Yes, ruminate on the good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

I find that as I heal or as I find peace, for some reason, my brain wants to go to the old pattern, or it I almost feel bored, right? So that um like I'm seeking the same issues so that my brain recognizes it, the pattern, the bad pattern. So I'm wondering, do you have you do you know why that happens or do you have you seen that happen before?

Journaling, Gratitude, And Resetting

Boredom, Self‑Sabotage, And Joy Capacity

SPEAKER_01 35:05

You know, I think there's some school of thought that it's self-sabotage, and we can certainly talk about that, you know. Um but then with self-sabotage, it's like you've got to get underneath. Are you afraid to really enjoy something because you're afraid you're gonna lose it? Are you afraid to enjoy it because you feel you don't deserve it? Like there's so much nuance to why we would sabotage. Some of it I do think is old patterning, you know. Um like I got into an amazing relationship and I can find myself finding something wrong, you know, and I'm like, dude, I'll dig into your ex-girlfriends if I need to, but I'm going to find something because this can't possibly be that good. And so some of it too is being able to just watch yourself in your own nonsense. I do that all the time. I'm like, oh wow, look, there's Joe being an idiot, you know, and like trying to create something that's not there, you know? And I kind of just have kind of a sort of playful relationship with myself because I trust myself to know, and this is important. I trust myself to know if there's something I really need to look at. And I know the difference. And so get really good at knowing if this is your intuition telling you, hey, I'm knocking on the door, you need to pay attention. This is real, and and go in and seek and and really give it reverence, versus this is just your old story and your old saboteur and your old fear of of letting yourself really be happy because it's such an um, I don't want to say uncomfortable. I don't think it's uncomfortable, it's unfamiliar for us, you know? And we need to stretch our capacity to hold joy, just like we need to stretch our capacity and our tolerance to hold pain. You know, we want to get really good at holding pain, not because we want to stay in it, but because we want to be able to be in it without needing to run. We also need to stretch our capacity for joy. And that is that's a real thing. A lot of us don't have the capacity to hold a lot of pleasure. We we hit this point, we're like, ah, you know, because it's just too much. We're not used to it. I mean, even like I heard somebody talking about this once in women who can't have multiple orgasms, and we're supposed to be able to, you know, yeah, supposed to. I I say that like our bodies can. Yeah. So it's like, what's your capacity even to hold pleasure? And so start stretching that, letting yourself do more things that you're doing just because you want to, not because you need to, you know. Um, when you are having a really good day, like thanking your body, checking in, not pushing too hard, right? Like, not just looking for peak experiences, but like, how do I create create more joy in my everyday life? I mean, one of the most fascinating studies to me is they took all these individuals who had something amazing happen or something horrific. And within about six months, their base point of happiness had returned. So if you win the lottery, oh my God, this is amazing, right? And your happiness point was here, you'll spike. Oh my God, I have all this money. But after six months, you're gonna return to where you were, or something awful, like you lose a limb. Oh my God, this is the worst thing that ever happened. I'm never gonna be okay. Within about six months, you're kind of back to where you were. So it's like we just need to, again, small, incrementally, we're trying to just raise our set point while we increase our ability to tolerate discomfort. Not from a staying abusive relationship, but the kind of discomfort that naturally just occurs in day-to-day living when we can hold that and then act intentionally, not just reach for something to get us out. That's the goal.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Yeah, and if we don't stretch ourselves like that while we're we're in our journey, I I wrote a little poem once and it was just so everyone loved it so much because it's about climbing the mountain, right? We're we're just busy living life and we're on our journey, we're climbing the mountain, and then you get to the top expecting this wonderful thing to happen, but it's like, is this it? You know, you feel nothing when you get to the top because you didn't take time to look around and and see what you were what was happening and choose joy all along the path, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:18

Yeah, I I used to um do a lot of martial arts, and that was one of the biggest things, you know, is enjoy the journey, not the destination. Right. And so how do we how do we really do that? And it's funny, I I heard this podcast, it was Dan Belzarian, who is like that, you know, billionaire playboy of Vegas, right? And he's always doing just the most insane parties, girls like height of everything. But I love that he talked about this. It was such a great message, especially for young men. But he was like, let me just paint you a picture. I'm on a yacht with 50 supermodels ready to have sex with me. He's like, and I'm bored. I have literally blown all of my dopamine. I cannot find joy. The I've just wrecked it all. And he literally had to go and just kind of like hang out at home for a few years and reset his dopamine because he couldn't even feel pleasure anymore. And I I laugh, but I was like, oh, I just God bless him for saying that because I I think that's one of the hardest things for people. And I work with a lot of uh very, very successful entrepreneurs or you know, a few pro athletes or people that have made it, right? Like the thing that that you think is gonna make you happy. Yeah. Yeah. And then it doesn't, and that's worse than oh, I'm trying to climb the ladder. As long as your basic needs are met. I'm trying to climb the ladder and I just can't, because then you can still live in the illusion of maybe someday I'll be happy. But like when you achieve the thing and you still like I can remember I'm like 23, I'm just shot for FHM magazine. I'm hanging out, you know, Playboy Mansion, my boyfriend plays for the Chargers. I live on the beach, like life is amazing, wrong, you know. I just like every day wanted to die. And I was like, wow, if I can't be happy now, I am so screwed. And that is like a whole different type of despair, is when you realize, nah, it was always an illusion.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

Yeah, and that's what I talk a lot a lot about a lot, is just that you could be the most successful person in the world with all the money and the titles, whatever, and still feel empty inside, you know, and you still you know what you're supposed to do. You know that you're supposed to to choose joy, but you don't do it. Why? You know what why don't we do what we know we should do? And that's because we're just so busy, you know, doing all the things we're supposed to do instead of the things that we need to do to grow spiritually. So if someone is listening right now and and feels the the pull to numb out, screw, you know, snack, eat bad foods or drink, text the wrong person, what's a what do you think a small step is that could interrupt that spiral today and then start on their journey?

Dopamine, Success, And Empty Peaks

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Yeah, that's a great question. And um I was just thinking about this the other day, and I'm like, what do I do? What do I do? Because I don't always like interrupt it perfectly, but sometimes I can really I can intervene, you know, pretty spot on. And what I say is one more second. And it's kind of this cue. I have this mantra, one more second. If I can just sit here one more second without grabbing the food, without grabbing the phone and shooting that tick. Yes. It's the pause. One more second, just one more second. And you just stack one more second, and then all of a sudden it's like, you know, any wave of craving, of compulsion, of emotion, when you just sit in it, it's like 90-second shelf life. It really will pass when you let it move through. So it's like if you can just hang just one more second before you do the thing and start building that muscle because it is a muscle and you've got to practice it, you know? And it's like you can't just go to the gym and lift weights one day and be like, why am I not ripped? You know, it's like, oh, you gotta return that time. Like get in there and and really do it. So just remember one more second.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

One more second. I love that so much. It's so similar to the pause. I mean, the neuroscience of it all, too, is so interesting because it allows the frontal cortex to come back online because it's not, it's not the lower brain is in charge and it's just like the caveman, you know, fight or flight, just trying to get you to get to you temporarily survive, no matter what you gotta do. Um, so I guess, you know, also one more thing, and then I promise I'll let you go. But I just um if someone's uh starting to understand and They're making this radical, you know, uh self uh improvement, but they start they start feeling guilty or shame about it because they think it's selfish, you know. So how does a person get around that? What do you think how they would get around the shame?

One More Second: Urge Surfing

SPEAKER_01 44:20

Yeah, that's um that's interesting. I would definitely start exploring where did I first learn this, you know, that that I'm not allowed to be a priority. That I'm not worthy. That I'm not worthy and that I need to put everyone else first. I mean, that that's a very, very, very early childhood belief. And so being able to try and untangle it from the root, I think is powerful. Um, and some of it too is that override system, which is okay, so what if I don't deserve it? Let me do it anyway. You know what I mean? Like at some point, um, if you can't get out of the story, you need to just dive totally into it. Like, here's an example. Sometimes when I have anxiety, the way I get out of it is I say, give me more. Just give me more, bring it, give me more. And there's something about that kind of grit that's like, I'm not scared of you. Give me more. Fine. You want me to feel anxious? Bring it. Let's do it. Get it all out of the way. So it's like, if you cannot untangle that shame, one thing to play with is great, I don't deserve it. Let me see what happens anyway. Because here's the thing: you intellectually understand and know, put the oxygen mask on you first. You know, intellectually, that you healing and you prioritizing your healing will make you a better mother, a better father, a better daughter, employee. Like your gift to the world is like very, very, very much in line with your healing. So you better is better for everyone. We know that intellectually. So there is some negative belief, some unconscious belief, some pre-programmed belief that is telling you that. And the other thing you can do is ask whose voice is this? When you hear you don't deserve it, whose voice is that? You know, is it your mom's, your dad's, the kid on the playground? Who's saying that to you? We because again, truth is always true. So you can have your stories and your trauma and all your nonsense, but at the end of the day, truth is always true. And it will feel the most true in your body. And when it's like, no, my healing is for the good of all. And that is true for each and every one of us. As we heal, we bring that light, we bring that love, we we stretch our capacity for joy, for optimism, for hope, for faith. Everyone benefits from that. There is no one that gets worse from that. So it's like, again, truth is always true. Your healing is always in the best interest of everyone. It may not be immediately, and that's the caveat, right? Because healing journeys can be exceptionally painful. And yes, people may not have your full attention. You may need to be a little bit selfish. It may get worse before it gets better. But in the long run, if you stay the course, it is better for everyone, you know?

SPEAKER_00 47:10

Right. And I love that so much because there's a lot of self-shaming too, especially when we don't accomplish our goals. I mean, like we're we keep trying over and over and over to beat an addiction, but then we go back to it. So, so we feel our own, we shame ourselves. So, you know, someone that's trying to be better, they need to give themselves a little more grace. Wouldn't you agree?

SPEAKER_01 47:36

Yeah, and it's really important to remember there is no such thing as failure until you give up. It just hasn't worked yet. It just hasn't worked yet. You're trying and it didn't work, and you're trying again, and you're still in the process of trying. It doesn't matter how many times you slip, you relapse, whatever. It's like as long as you continue to try, you have not failed. You just haven't healed yet. And keep going. Keep going.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

And who um who do you hope people become? I mean, what would you like to see in a perfect world?

SPEAKER_01 48:15

I really believe that everybody here has a very unique fingerprint to leave on the world. And I I just whether it's through their art, their creativity, I mean, obviously, I would love it if it was all positive, magnificent, wonderful things that people are living in the, you know, in the world, more compassion, um, more understanding, more radical self-responsibility. We seem to be lacking that a lot as a society. Um yeah, I would love, I would love to see a more compassionate, responsible self emerge, you know? Um, because I I do. I think people are great. I I think God makes no accidents. I think every single life here matters and is beautiful and has something to contribute. And so it's like, I want to know what that is, you know? Right. And I want to know you're messy too. I like messy, you know? It's like bring all of it. Y'all get scummed. But yeah, you know, it's but I I do think that that self-responsibility and compassion would would really be a beautiful, beautiful shift.

SPEAKER_00 49:20

You're so it's so true. And I talk a lot about kindness too. You know, people love to hate right now, and it's really sad. And so I felt really, you know, led to speak on kindness because it's a superpower in my mind.

Guilt, Shame, And Worthiness

SPEAKER_01 49:35

The best thing I ever heard around that, when I was going through my divorce, like shocker, we're not married anymore. Um, I was so mad. And like I I had moved to Mexico and trying to get divorced in another country. It's everything that could go wrong did. And I was so angry all the time. And um, my friend looked at me and it was really cool. And she goes, in my defenselessness, my safety lies. And it's a line from the Course in Miracles. In my defenselessness, I don't need to justify, I don't need to prove, I don't need to, you gotta see it my way. I don't need to manipulate, I don't need to control. In my defenselessness, my safety lies, which I'm a fighter, like a martial arts fighter, a like I will debate you to the end of the earth fighter. I fight, fight, fight. It's my personality. And it was like, hey, stop doing that. In my defenselessness, my safety lies. And all I need to know is my truth. I need to hold my energy in a way that is dignified and respectful. I don't need anybody to see my point of view. I can speak my truth, you know, with grace. And that is where my safety lies. And um, and I I try, you know, my best.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

You're beautiful. I thank you for your honesty and your heart. You know, if this episode episode spoke to you, share it with someone who needs it. This was a great one. I think there's a lot of good stuff in here, and you can listen to it over and over and get a lot of uh good little nuggets. And remember, one pause can change the direction of your day.